Remove keybind from move view options #79453
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This seems completely subjective. I constantly use the default move view keys. I find them intuitive and helpful. They make it easy to play zoomed in further when your attention is mainly in one direction by shifting the view quickly with keys your hands are already on. |
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This is an incomplete PR and has no basis outside of personal opinion. Changing default keybinds that have been around since at least 0.C seems ridiculous. If the problem claimed is real then at the very least there should be links to a few discussions with many people agreeing with this sentiment, and very few disagreeing over a decent span of time. |
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Personal anecdote here, but I happen to frequently press one of the shift view letters on accident, and after noticing I groan and go the keybind finder to find the reset view button. In my opinion this is a good change. |
So this is a voting issue then? One for and one against if we look at outside opinion? Doesn't seem like a constructive way to make changes, especially ones related to person keybind preferences. Again, if this is such an issue it should be easy to support with links to outside discussion. EDIT: The default to reset view is ":" which is shift+";" which is default for look. So look moves while shift+"look" resets your view. Shift+"move keys" moves your view. Which seems like purposeful and intuitive design. Gives you the ability to move and move your view without moving from "home row". |
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I agree this is a subjective issue based on my experience, but i do not remove the option completely; if someone would find this keybind useful, they can always rebind it again, i have nothing against it It is, again, a change targeted toward people who are less familiar with the game. I'm open to propositions how to alter in a way so it's both preserved (even if my personal opinion is that there is little reason to) and signalizes to player what they have done and how to fix it |
This is exactly my point. Your argument is you don't like it and want to change the default because you and some others personally don't like it. Your solution to those who disagree is they can just change the keybinds back after. I could easily argue the exact opposite without any effort. You and said others can just remove the keybinds yourself since you don't like them in your game. Why change a default that seems intuitively and purposefully designed when a simple keybind change solve your percieved problem? As someone what has played since 0.C and loves these default keybinds I find it senseless. To support my opinion I will link some references with reasons. These keybinds make sense when you look at common "keyboard layout cheat sheets" that many intro players use too. They have always been there. Note these are all made years apart and all receive positive feedback. This is a simple example of the linked discussions that would IMO be considered support of my argument against. By looking at a cheat sheets it seems obvious by what I mean purposeful and thought out design. It's the same set of keys, one for looking, one for moving, differentiated by only the shift key. All on "home row". To remove them would thus be backwards progress. |
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If anyone has some evidence of discussion that begins to show a largely agreed dislike of these keybinds please link it. Otherwise this seems like backwards progress and I could easily continue to link more posts supporting the agreeance that these keybinds are helpful and intuitive. Here is another proposed change to default layouts that was another example of backwards progress. This proposed change is very similar and another example of changing a well thought out layout that has been in place for ages. |
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The option is still there for people who want to use it, and this does not affect existing players because their current settings are retained in The question I think is how many new players would be utilizing this, and |
I didn't say i don't like it, i say i constantly see people not aware of what they did, and asking how to undo it
And you do
It does not solve my problem of seeing other users pressing it by accident, it existing from 0.C is absolutely not a sign it should be left like this
Not all players have the cheat sheet all the time Again, you say a lot that you disagree with change, but you didn't propose any meaningful alternative for it, except "let the user read the manual" |
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I've presented much evidence through linked discussions and logic that the current layout is intuitive, purposeful, and received positively. I'd love to see some evidence to the contrary other than opinion before you change (via removing) default keybinds. My argument is that it's backwards progress. And my citations support this argument. Please show some counter-evidence that invalidates my argument. |
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i could've bring more screenshots, but discord search is godugly for this purposes |
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So a handful of screenshots of a few users not understanding the keybinds is justification to remove the defaults?? I linked 3 keyboard cheat sheets that that have 1500 upvotes between them. And a similar proposition to change default keybinds that was argued against and with the same argument "bring more evidence". That makes ~1500 for keep the defaults, and 8 screenshots against. |
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If you do a simple google search for "CDDA controls explained" the some of the first recurring suggestions that come up are to use keyboard cheat sheets when starting out. Also explanations of HJKL based controls. The fact that hjkl are move N,S,E,W, and HJKL are shift view N,S,E,W is clear evidence of purposeful design. Similarly ; is default for look. While : is default of recenter view. It's all intuitive and purposeful. |
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I won't have a problem if Kevin open this PR, see what i did, and close the pr with comment "No" |
Go ahead and link him. You've got some pull around here seeing as you generally provide lots of helpful contributions. |
There is a fallacy of correlation here. Those upvotes weren't for a poll to keep/change keybinds, it's for the post authors who made a cheatsheet for the game's bloated control scheme |
They show a general agreeance for the default layout. As is evident by the positive support for a visually intuitive guide. I've also provided the logical argument that the current layout is meaningfully and purposefully designed. Both through text, and the images of said cheat sheets. Now I agree that these post and screenshots both for and against could be considered low quality and anecdotal, however I have yet to hear a logical counterpoint to the argument of meaningful and purposeful design. I also have yet to hear any argument for this change other than anecdotal support. |
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If we remove all anecdotal arguments we are left with a logical argument against the change with no current logical counterpoint. That argument is that the current layout is meaningful and purposefully designed and to remove it based on personal opinion of the few would be backwards progress. We also do not have a logical argument for the changes to begin with. |
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It would be much appreciated if @kevingranade could review PR #79453 I think it is extremely dangerous to remove default keybinds that appear to be meaningfully designed without significant evidence for the need. I have presented what I believe to be a logical argument with supportive evidence against the removal of said default keybinds. |
As someone who's never used it on purpose, I'd love to know: What do you use the shift view feature for? Genuinely curious about this. |
That's how you've rationalized it from your perspective. There is no logic in this topic, just opinions and rationale, and no one is going to be able to convince anyone else. |
From my initial reply. I will further argue the value of this as both decreasing the strain of constantly playing fully zoomed out, and being able to enjoy the wonderfully designed tilesets that are now default also. |
I agree. This is exactly why this whole PR is nonsense to begin with. It is based on opinion. There is no logical need to change the defaults to begin with. Therefore this PR should be closed. And to counter your argument for simplifying, please reference the mentioned discourse discussion invalidating a similar proposal to "simplify the bloated controls/UI" when they are actually meaningfully designed. |
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https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/ui-streamlining/14717 I will further argue why this previous post is relevant. Half of the proposal is to remove the hjkl controls completely. Likewise, the current proposal removes an entire HALF of their functionality. As is stated, these controls are staples of rougelike games. To remove the half that applies to looking around seems completely ludicrous. Similarly the logic to having mulitple systems to achieve the same thing is here in the second half of the linked proposal. You can (e)at and then select and item, or you can select the item then (e)at it. Likewise, the shift+(hjkl) controls allow an intuitive alternative to the x/; look system. And again to remove them would be backwards progress. The argument "I don't use these inputs" and "some people don't understand them" is not a basis to remove what could easily be argued as half of a traditional roguelike control scheme. |
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Again, the fact that this PR has no logical argument for, and only anecdotal support, while trying to change half of the default control scheme that is comprised of traditional roguelike controls makes it completely unbased. For those who don't like traditional roguelike controls, the direction keys and number pad will always be alternatives. This PR should immediately be closed. |
I'm not making arguments, because I'm not trying to convince anyone. Just sharing my perspective. There's no use to counter a personal preference. Like, I already have fork with simplified controls and UI anyway, because I've hated the keyboard controls for this game since first played in 2019. In any case, I'll always support any proposal (like this PR) to simplify the end user experience or improve accessibility to benefit a wider audience. Personally, I don't agree with the concept of "thing should never change because tradition/it's always been like this". |
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I agree with the sentiment to have more appeal to a wider audience. But that cannot come at the cost of hamstringing those who prefer traditional hjkl controls. Again, there are always the keypad and number pad alternatives for those who don't like them. |
No |
Summary
None
Purpose of change
More people use it by accident and then try to find how to undo it, than people who genuinely use it
Describe the solution
Remove default keybind
Describe alternatives you've considered
Not removing keybinds