Obsolete modern bow crafting recipes #39128
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ZhilkinSerg
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I usually just read these as they get merged, but wanted to note as someone who practices archery that many modern recurve bows are made from wood and could be made by hand as a Cataclysm survivor without becoming considerably "less performant" depending on the wood used, including "takedown" recurves which allow the limbs to be removed and stowed with a little extra metalwork for the attachment points (for an extremely ornate example, see the Blacktail Bows Legacy Series. I get removing the current recipe because it looks like it references a fiberglass recurve, but just keep this in mind when updating after 0.E. |
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The plan IS to introduce a line of player craftable bows that butt up against the best you can feasibly make in the situation, but as you note, all of these are specifically using modern materials and manufacturing. |
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These recipes aren't outlandish or impossible with the tools our survivors have access to. We're not working with carbon-fibre or unobtanium. Compound bows commonly have aluminium risers and there are many youtube videos showing homemade castings for risers and cams, such as this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxFIdRoqaFA. If we have the tools and facilities to make whopping great big greatswords and ornamental plate armor, surely we can cast an aluminium riser, cams and make limbs that work for the design - some limbs are even made of aluminium. Some modern bows are made of carbon-fibre and fibreglass laminate, yes, but we should be able to craft a working, effective compound bow if we have the stats and recipe books for them. This effectively breaks archery and makes it borderline impossible to use bows lategame when you're facing hulks and the like unless you luck out with a compound bow find in a hunting store or debug one in. Please reconsider this. |
See Frequently Made Suggestions, this isn't an argument for being able to make these. |
I'm not saying 'because we have nanobots and power armor', and I'm not trying to add anything on those grounds, I'm saying that removing these recipes from craftable on the cited reasons does not make sense. The argument was that we don't have the tools to produce 'advanced compound geometry' which is horseshit because as I evidenced you can make entire bows out of casted aluminium. This has actually killed any desire I had to play Cataclysm on latest experimentals. |
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These bows are not made of aluminium. |
And what's your point? The recipe says they're made out of sheet metal and steel. The Survivor with access to a charcoal forge, swage+die and hand tools could feasibly make the riser and limbs and cams out of those materials, which should be point enough to invalidate their removal. |
You didn't scroll down far enough to see the thing I was pointing you at. |
I directly addressed the 'can craft x so...' accusation, which is the last thing on that FAQ... I'm not sure where you're trying to say here. |
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I don't see you addressing that, unless it's just implicit in your saying that the argument was not because of the first thing. |
I'm not arguing 'we can craft ornamental plate armour so we should be able to craft compound bows'. I'm arguing that "This change destroys archery craftable progression on the false reasoning that we don't have the tools to craft things with 'advanced complex geometry'". I'm not arguing for the addition of compound bows, I'm arguing against their removal from the crafting system because the reason that was used to justify their removal is incorrect. This change leaves archery characters high and dry unless they find the extraordinarily rare spawn in a hunting store or camp. It completely breaks progression and leaves me personally with no intention to play the game past the experimental prior to this nerf. |
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Your argument 'if we have the tools and facilties to build swords and plate armor, we have the tools and facilities to build these things' is exactly that argument. |
You argued that recipes should not be removed as bows can be made out of cast aluminum. Current recipes are not using aluminum. |
To be fair to you, I did state that exact line. But to be fair to me, that line was not imperative to my argument, and I may be in the wrong to have posited that line as an argument. I can't find much in the way of written sources, but the youtube video is valid, and an interesting watch nonetheless, and all info needed can be seen on 2x speed anyway. Actual bowmaking starts at 2:00 and ends at 21:28. Notable timeline is make cast (finishes at 4:00 mark) --> pour cast (not shown: degassing and troubleshooting air bubbles) --> crack cast --> smooth edges --> Drill and tap (6:13 - 6:30) The guy uses a ski or something for his limb, but aluminium is a very common limb material. Repeating the cast, pour, smooth process for the cams --> drilling and tapping the cams --> attach cams to limb, limb to riser --> adding string guides and string stop My point is that the reasoning behind the removal of them being craftable is invalid on the grounds I've cited, on top of the progression issues this raises that were put straight into the major stable release without a spare thought. |
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In addition, that FAQ point specifically states "cordless drills and gunsmithing tools are equally hard to make, but we can only make cordless drills" which is not the point I'm making. I did refer to similar wording earlier, which was a mistake on my part. I was not at any point stating that ornamental plate armor and great swords were equally as hard to make as compound bows IRL. My point on that front was in direct argument to the cited reason for removal, that it made no sense for the survivor to be able to make modern bows 'with advanced compound geometry'. As I've argued, that's incorrect, as I've shown directly with the casting of a riser from aluminium, and limbs are mechanically simple parts to produce and fit. Making compound bows and compound crossbows fits the progression and theme of the game. Perhaps the recipe should have been updated and changed, that's a different discussion I'd be very willing to engage in, but it should not have been removed on the erroneous grounds that they were |
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There were no erroneous grounds for removal. |
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@Insanegame27 Dude, this is a stopgap for getting 0.E out the door, to get something obviously wrong out of the way. We're going to have more involved stuff later. |
What was obviously wrong about being able to craft compound bows and crossbows and recurve bows? If anything the stopgap should have been a change in item description to match the crafting recipes, not stopping them from being crafted. |
You can run your project however you see fit - just as we do. |
First of all: We're in content and string freeze, because we can't be shuffling things around on translations. second: obviously wrong is that these are clearly things that require materials a survivor cannot produce, or processes we do not currently model, and require a great deal of infrastructure, even where they would be possible. third: i reiterate kevin again, a larger selection of bows will be made later, made with different materials and out of different methodologies, and some of THOSE will have some crafting recipes that we cannot currently justify for the bows already in the game due to lacking processes, tools, and materials that are not yet implemented. and no, we aren't going to have magic recipes that take some wood and produce a fiberglass bow. |
Summary
SUMMARY: None
Purpose of change
While doing #37241 I noticed that a number of very modern (fiberglass and carbon fiber and advanced compound geometry) bows and crossbows were craftable.
Describe the solution
Obsolete the crafting recipes.
Describe alternatives you've considered
Post release, we can build up some more craftable (but less performant) bows to replace these, but I'm not going to shim them in right before release.
Testing
These just need to avoid load errors on a game where the player knows the recipes.