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MathML-Core meeting on Monday, July 26, 2023 #198

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bkardell opened this issue Jun 23, 2023 · 3 comments
Closed

MathML-Core meeting on Monday, July 26, 2023 #198

bkardell opened this issue Jun 23, 2023 · 3 comments

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@bkardell
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Agenda items, feel free to reply to suggest more...

Let's review some open issues starting with theses
@bkardell
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bkardell commented Jun 26, 2023 •
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Here are the auto generated zoom minutes, no corrections :)


[Brian Kardell] 13:04:12
Alright, well I guess let's get started. I don't see anybody else joining. It's a pretty small group we have.

[Brian Kardell] 13:04:21
So I have in 1 98 the agenda, I think.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:04:26
Yep.

[Brian Kardell] 13:04:28
Oops.

[Louis Maher] 13:04:30
The CR part. Oh, and I'm sorry, you're talking about where the agenda lives.

[Louis Maher] 13:04:36
Okay, got it.

[Brian Kardell] 13:04:36
Yeah. Yeah, so I think let's just start with the CR because.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:04:37
Yes.

[Brian Kardell] 13:04:44
I think the only thing we're lacking is a horizontal review request.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:04:48
Yeah. Yeah, II need to do that apparently they've just changed the fast thing for EPA because I think people complained but I have to go reread.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:05:03
That. So yeah, I'm I've gotta write a talk this week and I'm Got a lot of stuff going on with, mascots.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:05:18
So I'm way behind the the 8 ball or whatever it is the same. Maybe I'd be able to do something in 2 weeks.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:05:27
Because I'm away next week for the conference for a conference.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:05:31
But yeah, I'll see what I can do. Pick pick off. There's 5 groups and so I just maybe I need to write to one each day or something like that.

[Brian Kardell] 13:05:33
I mean

[Neil Soiffer] 13:05:41
Let's try and get an hour spent to do that and fill out whatever forms they have.

[Brian Kardell] 13:05:48
Okay. I mean, I'm happy to help with that.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:05:53
I, yeah, I, this clearly is turned into a big mountain in front of me, much bigger than it actually is, but yeah.

[Brian Kardell] 13:06:01
Okay, how about this? Let's take a let's take an action that I'll, you and I can.

[Brian Kardell] 13:06:08
Kinda instant message each other. And figure it out and we'll move it between this and next.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:06:10
Okay.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:06:15
Yeah.

[Brian Kardell] 13:06:16
I'm definitely happy to you know, email other groups and answer their questions and fill out their forms.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:06:24
Okay. That's great. Thanks.

[Brian Kardell] 13:06:25
Okay.

[Brian Kardell] 13:06:34
Okay. So. Then issue 1 80.

[Brian Kardell] 13:06:41
Parsing of column span and rose pan.

[Brian Kardell] 13:06:50
So. Does anybody wanna summarize this? So it's not just me talking or.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:06:57
Yeah, so I think then David maybe correct me. The issue is that. Ml 3 had one name for column span.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:07:11
Well, at column span. HTML has call span. Fred said, hey, we should probably be using the HTML name.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:07:21
Which I think is a good idea But there's this problem that of course there's a lot of column spans out there in the world.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:07:32
And so what's, the right thing to do? I think. It was me who proposed that we support both as an interim, but officially in the spec just least call span.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:07:47
But yeah, what was Fred's reply to that? Oh, it speckles, but, specs been updated.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:07:56
Or Missilla doesn't like that change. And so.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:08:04
Yeah, so I, you know. One option is to say we'll support both. And, internally it just converts to one of the forms.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:08:16
And the I guess what ever external API is since that would be new it support only call span and that external API.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:08:29
So I think that's the summary.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:08:34
Fred's had, yeah, I see Fred has renamed column span to call span.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:08:40
Couple of weeks ago. So does anybody else have anything to add to that?

[David Carlisle] 13:08:44
Well, just I think. Sporting Bows, which is kind of nice in way for ability to sell the issues about.

[David Carlisle] 13:08:51
What happens if you actually use both? He just keeps. More complicated than it's worth.

[David Carlisle] 13:09:00
Oh yeah. This is a breaking change in a way, but It's probably it would get away with it.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:09:10
Well, I mean, given that he said Mozilla doesn't like this. I don't know and I don't know who from.

[David Carlisle] 13:09:14
Yeah, what does that mean?

[Brian Kardell] 13:09:19
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I do. So if you click the link to the Mozilla position on it.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:09:21
Do you know anything? Okay.

[Brian Kardell] 13:09:33
It's Simon Peters who was originally from Opera. And then was at Boku for a long time and now is there.

[Brian Kardell] 13:09:43
There was some like discussion where Emilio who's been at Mozilla for a while and honestly kind of like runs a lot of the web stuff there.

[Brian Kardell] 13:09:58
Suggested that we could maybe think about treating it like other things like adding a counter, making sure that it's.

[Brian Kardell] 13:10:06
Low putting it behind a flag and then totally removing it if we team it's fine but I also.

[Brian Kardell] 13:10:17
Spoke to. Henry, I don't know how to say his last name, but he's from.

[Brian Kardell] 13:10:25
Firefox who's been there forever and really St. And he also didn't like.

[David Carlisle] 13:10:27
Yep.

[Brian Kardell] 13:10:40
Didn't like renaming. He said that there's very little cost benefit here, which makes the cost benefit or risk benefit hard to motivate.

[Brian Kardell] 13:10:54
I think that they just want to keep it.

[Brian Kardell] 13:11:02
Keep it different. In this case.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:11:05
So I'm not sure. So are you saying that they want just one name and it's columns band or they're okay with 2 names or

[Brian Kardell] 13:11:15
Ii think Simon Peters suggested that.

[Brian Kardell] 13:11:23
It would not be good to. Support both. Let me let me just quickly scan it again to see if I.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:11:32
Okay.

[Brian Kardell] 13:11:33
Confirm that.

[David Carlisle] 13:11:39
Yes, 7 4 3 things. Not twenty-seven's coming to.

[Brian Kardell] 13:11:56
Yeah, I don't see. Maybe I had reached out and talked to him or something, but I would swear that they said yeah, here we go.

[Brian Kardell] 13:12:06
Okay, I think supporting both attributes is worse than the status quo. For both implementation complexity and confusion for developers by shipping support for both.

[Brian Kardell] 13:12:15
Hoping that the old name can be removed in the future we risk stay in that state forever.

[Brian Kardell] 13:12:21
I would be okay with changing the name if support for the old name could be removed at the same time, but then later after further discussion, they decided they're not okay with that.

[Brian Kardell] 13:12:31
So. To me, that sounds like their position is we should. Like keep it as it was in M.

[Brian Kardell] 13:12:40
Even though it's different from HTML. Just this, I guess.

[David Carlisle] 13:12:45
Yeah, I mean to be honest, I mean everything else is different. I mean the element names are different as well.

[David Carlisle] 13:12:51
I'm not prepared to. Oh, you know, I mean we've closed it. Kind of a major but just push back.

[Brian Kardell] 13:13:01
I think that's a good thing to propose.

[David Carlisle] 13:13:02
Yeah, so I'd be happy just to. Wevert the changing.

[Brian Kardell] 13:13:08
I think it's a hill that you would be willing to stub your toe on, but probably not Dion.

[Brian Kardell] 13:13:13
Yeah.

[David Carlisle] 13:13:13
Yeah, I mean it's like We don't wanna. Oh, pushes out with bad press saying, you know, it's incompatible and breaks everything.

[Brian Kardell] 13:13:23
Yeah. Right.

[David Carlisle] 13:13:25
It's not it's not the story you want to push. And it's sort of

[David Carlisle] 13:13:30
Oh yeah, I mean, especially if you, if you move the current name and just have a new name, then it's hard to, the current name and just have a new name, then it's hard to argue it's not in come back footage so I Yeah, I'd back down here.

[Brian Kardell] 13:13:39
Right.

[Brian Kardell] 13:13:44
Okay, the there is another question that is related to this. That is.

[Brian Kardell] 13:13:57
About the IDL, but I guess we'll take that up another that's 1 66.

[Brian Kardell] 13:14:04
And whether we want to align with that, but.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:14:12
Yeah, man, that one.

[Brian Kardell] 13:14:13
The names don't align. So.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:14:17
I mean it's seems to me obvious that the name should align with what the spec is using. Right, why would you do?

[Neil Soiffer] 13:14:26
One name for the ideal and another name. Or the HTML.

[Brian Kardell] 13:14:39
Right. Okay. I guess we'll Have a look at 1 66.

[Brian Kardell] 13:14:53
After like next time maybe. I think you're probably right, but it's affected by this decision for sure.

[Brian Kardell] 13:15:00
Like.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:15:01
Yeah, so, I think one of the Maybe you could talk with Fred, but he's been the one that was pushing that it should be call span.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:15:10
So. probably should see if he has any strong objections. To doing this but then he has to argue.

[David Carlisle] 13:15:19
It is a suspect change and I guess How do you change the tests as well? P.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:15:25
There was something.

[Brian Kardell] 13:15:26
You said that this is. Currently blocking the Chromium. CL.

[Brian Kardell] 13:15:38
So we should probably resolve to.

[Brian Kardell] 13:15:45
Keep it different.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:15:48
Yeah.

[Brian Kardell] 13:15:54
Yeah.

[Louis Maher] 13:15:59
Is that a consensus?

[Brian Kardell] 13:16:00
That's the proposed resolution is to keep column span and rose span matching.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:16:07
Yeah, based on the objections from.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:16:13
Mozilla.

[Brian Kardell] 13:16:13
Oh, Dylan. Yeah. I think honestly that Apple will also prefer that, based on some discussions.

[David Carlisle] 13:16:23
Christopher, happy to change anything. So based on not having to change anything.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:16:25
Yeah.

[Brian Kardell] 13:16:26
What's that? No, based on some other discussions that I had with, Some Apple folks.

[Brian Kardell] 13:16:36
In the past I think I think Mozilla has been more willing to change. On some of these things because, Webkit has already had some changes and they feel like

[Brian Kardell] 13:16:52
I believe they support this and some things with their ebooks and I think they don't want anything to break.

[Brian Kardell] 13:17:01
Yeah.

[Brian Kardell] 13:17:06
Okay, so. Going once on the resolution going twice. Any.

[David Carlisle] 13:17:13
Yes, I'll be, but just on the, you said to keep it, but it just make it explicit.

[David Carlisle] 13:17:17
It does need to be reverted because the specs already changed. Good.

[Brian Kardell] 13:17:24
The editor's draft currently says. Matching. Yeah. The resolution would be that we have to change that, right?

[David Carlisle] 13:17:27
The new name. You have much in HTML. So we took.

[David Carlisle] 13:17:35
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like you would as keeping. Yeah, okay.

[Brian Kardell] 13:17:42
Okay, do would you like to state a proposed resolution that we can agree to like a specific thing?

[David Carlisle] 13:17:49
What we should revert my call to use the name using. At North Jeez. Call this time.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:17:57
To use column span rather than call span.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:18:03
Due to Mozilla's. Resistance to making a change.

[Brian Kardell] 13:18:09
Yes.

[Brian Kardell] 13:18:13
Plus one to that from me.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:18:16
So. I think it was. I think it was unanimous.

[Brian Kardell] 13:18:18
Anybody?

[Louis Maher] 13:18:19
Yes.

[Brian Kardell] 13:18:23
Okay. Okay.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:18:25
Apparently my my or my auto pilot doesn't object.

[Louis Maher] 13:18:30
You don't, yeah, it's a polite.

[Brian Kardell] 13:18:32
Okay. Alright. Move on. What's the next issue?

[Neil Soiffer] 13:18:43
Popover support.

[Brian Kardell] 13:18:44
Oh yeah, the pop over support. So. This is pretty interesting to me. I think that Maybe I didn't remember who exactly.

[Brian Kardell] 13:18:59
But I think that people on this call have talked about. Things that do. Popovers on math basically.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:19:11
Yeah, so one of one of the ones that we talked about in the math and ML 4 group was the notion of properties and being able to have a pop over that says, hey, this is a real number.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:19:23
This is a you know, even number or something like that as you move over a variable among other many other things.

[Brian Kardell] 13:19:35
So have you all looked at all at the new pop over in HTML coming?

[Neil Soiffer] 13:19:42
Not me.

[Brian Kardell] 13:19:43
Okay, so what Yeah, so what it is basically is an attribute. And you say that thing over there is a possible for this.

[David Carlisle] 13:19:44
I beef looked long time ago, but not a long time. Here.

[Brian Kardell] 13:19:56
And then you can also give it a pop over type essentially. And that tells it like how the interactions work.

[Brian Kardell] 13:20:05
So there's.

[Brian Kardell] 13:20:09
There's like a full tip type, you know, like that one kind of pop over and then.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:20:13
Yeah.

[Brian Kardell] 13:20:17
There's another one that they're working on right now that is called hint. Which is.

[Brian Kardell] 13:20:26
Basically this has to do with like do you need to have focus on it or is it like a hover kind of thing and what What are the mechanisms that dismiss it?

[Brian Kardell] 13:20:35
You know?

[Neil Soiffer] 13:20:36
So and I assume somebody's gone through and figured out how accessibility works with all this. Right.

[Brian Kardell] 13:20:45
So it doesn't handle accessibility for you. But you, yes, there were.

[Brian Kardell] 13:20:53
Accessibility experts in the design of it, yes. And You basically you have to.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:20:55
Right.

[Brian Kardell] 13:21:01
Add just a property or 2. But then you don't need to do any JavaScript coding so you can do it all declaratively.

[Brian Kardell] 13:21:09
You might. You might need a total of like 4 different attributes. But there's only a few.

[Brian Kardell] 13:21:17
Like few different compositions so you can have a pretty easy recipe book to say like, here's how you do this kind.

[Brian Kardell] 13:21:24
Here's how you do this kind. Here's how you do this kind. Yeah, it's not bad.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:21:26
Okay, that's good.

[Brian Kardell] 13:21:31
So anyway. You know, they're defined exclusively. I'm in that group that's working on that and currently they're defined exclusively in HTML.

[Brian Kardell] 13:21:44
And, I talked to Mason who's like the lead author on this and I said, Hey Gee, I thought when we talked about this initially it was in you would be allowed to do it in which we would really like, you know, we really like.

[Brian Kardell] 13:22:03
To figure that out because we wanna align and being able to create a pop over seems like. Pretty darn fundamental like so Mason really liked that.

[Brian Kardell] 13:22:20
But it Got kind of yanked out. For simplicity's sake.

[Brian Kardell] 13:22:31
So. I'm willing to, you know, Yeah, do the work and maybe at least get a bloody nose on this.

[Brian Kardell] 13:22:42
I'm not sure again, then I'm willing to die on it, but.

[Brian Kardell] 13:22:47
I'm not gonna do that if I'm the only one that thinks that. So, I would like to hear what the group thing.

[David Carlisle] 13:22:53
I'd be in favor of it. In Germany, I favor anything that makes it act the same.

[Brian Kardell] 13:23:02
Yeah.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:23:02
Yeah, so, so let's see, is there in any of these links in the issue? Is there an example of using it?

[Brian Kardell] 13:23:11
No. Let me.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:23:13
Alright, just one of the things I'm wonder about is, whether If this exists, whether it's some things like the properties in that we've been talking about nothing else or really.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:23:26
More belong as a pop over then. As a property that we've talked about. So I kind of wanna look at that.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:23:34
I again with David it's like well why wouldn't we want this what's the downside

[Brian Kardell] 13:23:40
Right. Let me actually.

[Brian Kardell] 13:23:49
Can't believe that I didn't.

[Brian Kardell] 13:23:54
Link, I can't believe I didn't link it in the

[Bruce Miller] 13:24:01
So this is basically an evolved. tools. An enhanced evolution of tool tips.

[Brian Kardell] 13:24:18
It can play the role of the tooltip. Let me give me just a second.

[Brian Kardell] 13:24:27
Put on the

[Brian Kardell] 13:24:31
Issue itself.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:24:32
Okay.

[Brian Kardell] 13:24:39
Okay, if you have your GitHub open. On 1 94 it's now the last comment on there has links to both the pop over and the sorry, both the MDN article and the actual explainer for it.

[Brian Kardell] 13:25:06
And if I can find my way back to the.

[Brian Kardell] 13:25:11
Let's see. Scan.

[Brian Kardell] 13:25:21
Okay, paste it into the minutes as well.

[Brian Kardell] 13:25:26
Online, 79 and 80. A one, sorry. Okay, yeah, so that's what we're talking about.

[Brian Kardell] 13:25:35
It's okay if this is. Like let's take some time and think about it, but.

[Brian Kardell] 13:25:43
Especially these days my Time is sort of precious. So I really think that this is a thing that we should do and

[Brian Kardell] 13:25:53
I'm willing to. Go do that. But.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:25:57
So I think for the spec, nothing would actually change. Cause I think. The spec says that math and now accepts all.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:26:07
Attribute global attributes in HTML, but I'm

[David Carlisle] 13:26:10
No, only the only ones.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:26:13
Oh, it does, it actually lists them.

[David Carlisle] 13:26:15
You know, there's a, there's a class, whatever they call an email, you know, on click and things.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:26:20
On.

[David Carlisle] 13:26:22
Of that nature and the and given that you can't actually do that in schema the schema has an actual it's because otherwise.

[David Carlisle] 13:26:30
You can't put the

[David Carlisle] 13:26:34
Whatever he says in the bank doesn't work that way. Well, you can allow everything. You know, any attribute.

[David Carlisle] 13:26:42
Or you miss the options.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:26:44
Okay.

[David Carlisle] 13:26:45
So come and be listed. But not, that anybody except me, everybody, it's using without schema anyway.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:26:48
So I know.

[David Carlisle] 13:26:52
So. Yeah, with that, that could be fixed but.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:26:58
So is there any, is there any work?

[Brian Kardell] 13:26:58
Yeah, so the question is really.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:27:03
Yeah, I was gonna say is there any work on Fred's or somebody else's part for the implementation?

[Brian Kardell] 13:27:10
Probably Mason would just volunteer to do it. It's pretty easy. What all it includes is.

[Brian Kardell] 13:27:19
You know, a lot of things are defined in terms of IDL. And those annotations are just sort of added to things and they Like in these kind of cases, they just do the wiring.

[David Carlisle] 13:27:32
Yeah.

[Brian Kardell] 13:27:32
For you during the bill. There's more to do after that. So.

[Brian Kardell] 13:27:40
I think the big discussion is just like,

[Brian Kardell] 13:27:45
You know, Neil said it supports everything global. If you look at the IDL in

[Brian Kardell] 13:27:53
2 2 3 section 2 2 3 down in JavaScript. It includes the global event handlers.

[Brian Kardell] 13:28:02
The document and element event handlers. Those are all. On more or less. And then also it includes this HTML or foreign element.

[Brian Kardell] 13:28:15
Which is currently still HTML or SVG element, but I need to do that still.

[Brian Kardell] 13:28:24
But yeah, that's what the discussion is. Like where should that mix in? Like which of those mixings does it belong in?

[Neil Soiffer] 13:28:27
Okay, so there

[Brian Kardell] 13:28:34
And I think currently it's on HML element.

[Louis Maher] 13:28:38
Brian, when you say you're willing to do the work, you mean just work on the spec or work on the.

[Louis Maher] 13:28:42
The HTML and SVG. Codes themselves

[Brian Kardell] 13:28:45
I mean work on discussions with the Whatwig and Chrome and Apple and you know, all the relevant editors, convince them, come to some agreement that We should do this.

[Louis Maher] 13:28:51
Okay.

[Louis Maher] 13:28:55
Alright, thank you.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:29:03
Yeah, and just to confirm what David had said is yeah, 2 1 3 and 2 1 4 would need to add.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:29:09
That, attribute with the link.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:29:16
But yeah, I think it's a minimal change to this back, but.

[David Carlisle] 13:29:20
Yeah.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:29:24
Yes.

[David Carlisle] 13:29:24
Also, I was just trying it. Despite being on MDN, it's it doesn't actually work in Firefox because it doesn't work in mind.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:29:31
It's, under experimental apparently.

[David Carlisle] 13:29:34
Okay. I was working in Chrome.

[Brian Kardell] 13:29:36
It is being implemented. I think if you had maybe nightly with the

[David Carlisle] 13:29:40
Oh well I've got I've got nightly but I've not All flags on.

[Brian Kardell] 13:29:44
Yeah.

[Louis Maher] 13:29:45
Was it?

[David Carlisle] 13:29:46
Not, not, Yeah, so, yeah.

[Brian Kardell] 13:29:48
Yeah, I think it's nightly behind the flag. Again, doing the implementation, I think, in Firefox.

[David Carlisle] 13:29:53
I'll try and understand what he's doing. Wasn't doing anything. So I switched him to Chrome.

[David Carlisle] 13:30:00
And then I was, I mean, I'm That's fine.

[Brian Kardell] 13:30:01
Yeah.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:30:02
Yeah, so.

[Louis Maher] 13:30:02
So you want to issue 2 1 3 and 2 1 4. Is that the issues you're gonna link to it or?

[Louis Maher] 13:30:08
Or 2 1 3 and 2 1 4 foring something else. Okay, thank you.

[Brian Kardell] 13:30:08
No, those are sections in the spec. What? Okay, so I guess We resolve that we are interested in this and we should probably do it.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:30:13
So, David, yeah, it's experimental in Chrome and not in Firefox. Yeah.

[David Carlisle] 13:30:19
Yeah, I've depends what flags I've got.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:30:22
Yeah.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:30:36
Yep.

[Brian Kardell] 13:30:37
If anybody wants to add their voice to the issue I guess we can record the resolution on.

[Brian Kardell] 13:30:48
On here that we're interested in doing it. But I think. You know, if we add a few comments on there, it will help.

[Brian Kardell] 13:30:58
Make it look like it's not just me.

[Brian Kardell] 13:31:03
Okay.

[Brian Kardell] 13:31:08
Do we have more issues?

[Brian Kardell] 13:31:12
Yes, just one.

[Brian Kardell] 13:31:17
1 88.

[Brian Kardell] 13:31:21
Is a PR. Links to actually links to PR which is 1 97 but it's addressing 1 88.

[Brian Kardell] 13:31:32
Sorry, my dog is. Having a. I don't know why.

[Brian Kardell] 13:31:42
So all this does is removes, a little chunk. That says that each IDL attribute of the MATLAB element interface reflects the corresponding mapmel attribute content as used.

[Brian Kardell] 13:32:00
Thank this is some text that we borrowed from SPG and. One of the editors.

[Brian Kardell] 13:32:09
Of HTML popped over and said, well, that's not true. So yeah, he's right.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:32:17
So

[Brian Kardell] 13:32:17
It's not true. We've said Raleigh.

[David Carlisle] 13:32:18
Okay.

[Brian Kardell] 13:32:23
So.

[David Carlisle] 13:32:23
Yeah, I saw the discussion on that. Which Yeah, it seems. It sounds like people you would talk about agreed.

[Brian Kardell] 13:32:31
Yeah.

[David Carlisle] 13:32:32
I mean, I was a

[Neil Soiffer] 13:32:34
So you have a PR, so somebody just needs to approve it.

[David Carlisle] 13:32:37
So I could just click OKAY.

[Brian Kardell] 13:32:39
You could just click okay if we could agree. Yeah.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:32:43
Well, if it's wrong, it needs to go. So I'm not gonna argue with that.

[Brian Kardell] 13:32:45
Yeah. Yeah.

[David Carlisle] 13:32:47
And we can play Bryan anyway, so that's fine.

[Brian Kardell] 13:32:49
That's fine.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:32:49
Yeah, yeah.

[David Carlisle] 13:32:52
Okay, I'll

[David Carlisle] 13:32:57
Oh, I wonder if I could find a browser. Yeah, I'll, I'll, If you are if you minute that I'll Oh yeah, if you got it, I've just, I speak to browsers and I've lost.

[Brian Kardell] 13:32:58
Click the green thing as merge.

[Brian Kardell] 13:33:05
I'm happy to click it right now. Okay, yeah.

[Brian Kardell] 13:33:12
Okay, I just didn't want to merge it myself without

[David Carlisle] 13:33:13
No, yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, to merge.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:33:15
The

[Brian Kardell] 13:33:17
It's done, yeah. I just felt like bad form to. Even if it's pretty obvious, you know, to just merge.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:33:25
Yeah.

[Brian Kardell] 13:33:29
So I think we, that's all we have. Does anybody? Have something else they would like to add to the agenda.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:33:37
So there was a question of bugs and submitting. Bug reports on how they should go. David, did you resolve?

[Neil Soiffer] 13:33:45
Because you had pointed out some ugliness. To me in some of the examples that got generated.

[David Carlisle] 13:33:51
Oh, no, I, no, II know where I supposed to go. I just haven't done it.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:33:56
Oh, okay.

[David Carlisle] 13:33:58
Bulk thing about the ML channel. Waste no suspicious light goes to Francis. Most of the things in there that I just need to.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:34:05
Okay.

[David Carlisle] 13:34:09
Do it.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:34:10
Okay.

[Brian Kardell] 13:34:14
Alright, sounds great.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:34:16
Well good. We actually finished early. That's amazing.

[Brian Kardell] 13:34:19
Amazing. I mean, well. We didn't have that many issues that probably helps.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:34:24
Yep. So is there, before we go, is there anything? Obviously we've, dealt with the agenda here, but do you see anything?

[Neil Soiffer] 13:34:34
Large ish looming on the horizon.

[Brian Kardell] 13:34:40
You're asking me?

[Neil Soiffer] 13:34:41
Yeah, or anybody else, but I assume you're more tuned to.

[Brian Kardell] 13:34:51
No, not. I mean, there. Still lots of. Interesting open questions some Like I feel not as especially prepared to answer.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:34:53
Okay.

[Brian Kardell] 13:35:07
Like 1 1 90 is one that was opened on March eighth that

[Brian Kardell] 13:35:14
Has not received any

[Brian Kardell] 13:35:19
Comments, I guess I should probably. Add some comment.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:35:23
So Bruce's hand is up first.

[Bruce Miller] 13:35:29
Yeah, I don't know. This is a good timing to raise this question, but.

[Bruce Miller] 13:35:36
I was just looking for it. Neil, you had hosted an issue or a question or comment at some point in the past.

[Bruce Miller] 13:35:46
This was regarding

[Bruce Miller] 13:35:50
Forcing mind breaking at a given, token.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:35:54
Oh, right. Yeah.

[Bruce Miller] 13:35:55
So just like the most extreme minimal Line breaking support that if you If you simply browsers respect that one case.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:36:04
Yeah

[Bruce Miller] 13:36:10
It opens up the door to, any sort of, JavaScript, JavaScript, poly fills.

[Bruce Miller] 13:36:17
To do it however you want to do it. And you do it without having to completely trash the map and now with M tables and all sorts of obscene stuff.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:36:27
Right, right.

[Bruce Miller] 13:36:28
And so I just thought there was an opportunity to ask the question whether There was any chance this was actually.

[Bruce Miller] 13:36:37
Relatively simple to implement and if we could. Get it being considered at least so that within a Not too distant future.

[Bruce Miller] 13:36:50
It's actually in place in. Several browsers and and implementers can actually proceed to try to use it.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:36:58
So, I think line breaking is on the table for, Core level 2. But that

[Bruce Miller] 13:37:07
Yeah, I mean, it's, in general, but if we had just this minimal bit. That looking so much.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:37:10
Yes, yeah.

[Bruce Miller] 13:37:15
Opportunities to experiment. The way it is right now and if you have to mess with M tables it's a nightmare of you know, wreck them and you know all sorts of of difficulties that People are very discouraged to try to do anything.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:37:17
Yeah

[Neil Soiffer] 13:37:33
Yeah, I mean, that's, you know, I have the, mind breaking. But as you say, it trashes the Dom and has to use an M table because it's the only way to get multiple lines and so it's Really ugly.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:37:48
I'm not happy with that. I do remember, gosh, it's been at probably at least 2 years trying to get Fred to do this and they said no.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:37:58
He's, you know, he just had other stuff that he considered important. And that wasn't one of the things he considered important, but it would certainly To me, it seems like a relatively minor implementation.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:38:12
Thing to do and yeah it makes a big deal to allow JavaScript line breaking to work.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:38:19
No reasonable manner.

[Bruce Miller] 13:38:21
Maybe Fred's a little more relaxed now.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:38:24
Yeah, I don't know. You could re-raise this issue and ask, you know, Fred, but it's as you say, it's not just.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:38:33
Fred, it has to go into all the browsers to be useful, right? Yeah.

[Bruce Miller] 13:38:35
Yeah, yeah.

[Brian Kardell] 13:38:37
So I do think that.

[Brian Kardell] 13:38:42
We still. So, okay, here's the drink. Is that we all have lock to do.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:38:49
Yeah.

[Brian Kardell] 13:38:50
And

[Brian Kardell] 13:38:53
We can only take so many tasks. You know like even if they're small tasks you can see how easy it is to get to the next meeting and be like, oh.

[Brian Kardell] 13:39:04
Yeah, I have not done that relatively small tasks, right? So We do have still. Quite a number of issues.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:39:06
Yeah

[Brian Kardell] 13:39:16
For level one. And we have to get through CR. I would suggest that we don't distract ourselves.

[Brian Kardell] 13:39:28
From level one. As much as I.

[Brian Kardell] 13:39:36
Empathized with what you're saying, but that said it would if you feel like I don't know if there is an issue.

[Brian Kardell] 13:39:46
I do remember Neil bringing this up. If you can find that issue and leave a comment to the effect or open a new issue and suggest that.

[Brian Kardell] 13:39:59
But my suggestion would be

[Brian Kardell] 13:40:04
I like would hesitate for us to get derailed because We're not there yet, even on level one.

[Brian Kardell] 13:40:13
So.

[Bruce Miller] 13:40:13
Yeah, I mean, that's my last, the, Last wish is to derail anything we may have been making excellent progress the fact that there's you know, such widespread math and ML support is fantastic.

[Bruce Miller] 13:40:29
It was really almost more a question for background as to, you know, how, difficult.

[Bruce Miller] 13:40:36
I mean, I do everything is always more difficult than when you hand wave and say, this, oh, this should be easy.

[Bruce Miller] 13:40:41
There's always more to it that. I just wanted to get a sense of how possible it might be and if it's possible, you know.

[Bruce Miller] 13:40:53
We might consider, but yeah. I agree. With what you're saying, Brian.

[Brian Kardell] 13:41:00
Okay, thank you. I Do you see something that I would like to confirm really quickly with David if he's still around?

[David Carlisle] 13:41:10
Yeah.

[Brian Kardell] 13:41:12
I'm just like scanning the issues as I'm Like how do we what can we consider and what can we not consider how far are we you know I don't make enough time to do this.

[Brian Kardell] 13:41:26
I should make more, but, I think it looks to me. Like. You have this commit.

[Brian Kardell] 13:41:36
I'm gonna paste it into the

[Brian Kardell] 13:41:41
The zoom chat Do you see it?

[David Carlisle] 13:41:46
1 s, the zoom chat.

[David Carlisle] 13:41:50
Oh, that's how pave me too.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:41:52
So it's something about no export.

[David Carlisle] 13:41:53
In their export. What was all this?

[Brian Kardell] 13:41:56
This is in reply to issue where, it was defining in a way that with shared. Yes.

[David Carlisle] 13:41:58
1 8 6.

[David Carlisle] 13:42:06
Oh yes, okay, but it was from, I'll come back into you.

[Brian Kardell] 13:42:10
If this is fixed now, right?

[David Carlisle] 13:42:13
I believe so.

[Brian Kardell] 13:42:16
Okay, so. I'm gonna close this issue then.

[David Carlisle] 13:42:20
Yeah.

[David Carlisle] 13:42:23
Yeah, he didn't come back on it. It was kind of weird because, the respect dot doesn't actually mention that attribute is an export but not in their export.

[David Carlisle] 13:42:31
But the code, the code has. The respect code has, how, how, it works.

[Louis Maher] 13:42:40
Wait.

[David Carlisle] 13:42:40
But I think that's why I didn't just straight away. I made a comment at the time.

[Louis Maher] 13:42:44
Which issue are you closing?

[David Carlisle] 13:42:44
Yeah, there. This is 1 8 6 in call.

[Bruce Miller] 13:42:48
Hi.

[Brian Kardell] 13:42:48
Yeah.

[David Carlisle] 13:42:50
Yes, I, in, I made a comment to. So the person that is not a documented feature but Oh, I did ask it.

[Bruce Miller] 13:42:53
Sorry, again.

[David Carlisle] 13:43:02
Yeah, they can get some sort. Yeah, they can close. Bye.

[Brian Kardell] 13:43:07
Okay. So what would be really great is, if rather than us sit on here for another 17 min.

[Brian Kardell] 13:43:19
Take this 17 min. Everybody hang up. And use the next 17 min to look at the GitHub.

[Brian Kardell] 13:43:26
And see is there things that are stalled or that need priority or whatever and if you need give them an agenda plus for next time.

[Brian Kardell] 13:43:37
Or, you know, close them.

[David Carlisle] 13:43:38
Yeah, because we've got 74 open issues. That we kind of a lot, isn't it?

[Brian Kardell] 13:43:42
Yeah, yeah. So that's my vote is that we all hang up and use the next 17 min.

[Brian Kardell] 13:43:50
To. Preview. Very good.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:43:53
Okay. Yeah, and so we just made we just add agenda labels. Is that what you're saying or?

[Brian Kardell] 13:44:00
Yeah, yeah, he can just add an agenda label.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:44:02
Okay.

[Brian Kardell] 13:44:03
Yeah, cool. Alright, enjoy the next 16 min. Bye.

[Neil Soiffer] 13:44:08
Yeah. Bye.

[David Carlisle] 13:44:09
Bye all

@ljmaher
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ljmaher commented Jun 26, 2023 via email

@bkardell
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bkardell commented Jun 26, 2023 via email

fred-wang added a commit that referenced this issue Jul 12, 2023
@fred-wang
Rename colspan back to columnspan.
3a9568a 
See #198 (comment)
and issue #180
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