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Minutes [here](https://www.w3.org/2024/03/01-social-minutes.html)
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Minutes [here](https://www.w3.org/2023/03/29-social-minutes.html)
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## Housekeeping

- Attendance
- @bumblefudge
- James (https://jamesg.blog)
- Tantek Çelik (https://tantek.com/)
- Ben Savage (Meta)
- Evan Prodromou
- David Somers (https://omz13.com)
- Bob Wyman
- Manton Reece (https://manton.org)
- Angelo Gladding (https://ragt.ag)
- @bumblefudge
- James (https://jamesg.blog)
- Tantek Çelik (https://tantek.com/)
- Ben Savage (Meta)
- Evan Prodromou
- David Somers (https://omz13.com)
- Bob Wyman
- Manton Reece (https://manton.org)
- Angelo Gladding (https://ragt.ag)
- Topics
- Introduction of meeting
- agenda [here](https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/next-swicg-call-scheduling/3388/3) and [here]()
- holding a SWICG session at [TPAC](https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/)? at least a casual meet-up for interested parties?
- Going: Evan, Tantek, Ben, and Juan (99% sure but depends on a visa)
- Ben: possible Threads<>Webtech session at TPAC?
- Remote attendance interest?
- Issue triage meetings lead by Evan P
- Triaging of issues (newer issues first)
- Discussion of CG outputs versus other modes of working
- bob: but what's the pressing need? what needs updating?
- bumble and manton: migration topic!

- Account Migration
- Manton has a [blog post on the subject](https://www.manton.org/2022/12/02/moving-from-mastodon.html)
- There is no spec, although there are a few interlocking socialhub threads trying to ideate towards an FEP
- Implementing it requires investigating what does Mastodon do (see socialhub thread)
- Introduction of meeting
- agenda [here](https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/next-swicg-call-scheduling/3388/3)
- holding a SWICG session at [TPAC](https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/)? at least a casual meet-up for interested parties?
- Going: Evan, Tantek, Ben, and bumblefudge (99% sure but depends on a visa)
- Ben: possible Threads<>Webtech session at TPAC?
- Remote attendance interest?
- Issue triage meetings lead by Evan P
- Triaging of issues (newer issues first)
- Discussion of CG outputs versus other modes of working
- bob: but what's the pressing need? what needs updating?
- bumble and manton: migration topic!

- Features to specification
- evan: Threads topics not covered by AP spec like limiting replies
- ben: UX/capability parity with Insta is a driving design goal; that's easy intra-Threads, but figuring out how that works across federation is more difficult...
- Account Migration
- Manton has a [blog post on the subject](https://www.manton.org/2022/12/02/moving-from-mastodon.html)
- There is no spec, although there are a few interlocking socialhub threads trying to ideate towards an FEP
- Implementing it requires investigating what does Mastodon do (see socialhub thread)

- Features to specification
- evan: Threads topics not covered by AP spec like limiting replies
- ben: UX/capability parity with Insta is a driving design goal; that's easy intra-Threads, but figuring out how that works across federation is more difficult...

## Chair Selection/election for SWICG

- Chairs
- evan: nightpool and aaronpk have said they don't have sufficient bandwidth/time
- evan: one chair is ok, however more is better, for timezones, to help as a backup for meetings
- Tantek: Encourages a bias toward implementors in a chair role -- should be actively working with specs, keeps the group grounded
- tantek: process for volunteering?
- evan: email to the list, James sent an email
- james: has experience with some IndieWeb specs (WebSub, IndieAuth, jf2)
- evan: have you talked to aaron about chairing?
- james: yes, aaron has noted his inability to keep up with the time commitments for the group.
- james: my prior experience does not include CG chairing, looking for mentorship from a previous chair
- evan: have you talked to dmitri?
- james: yes, aaron has been talking with dmitri, haven't heard back in a few weeks
- evan: if you had the help of tantek and dmitri in getting started, the processes aren't overwhelming, and it would be great to have another hand
- evan: is there anything else that we would need?
- evan: would love to have a third person in that role too (chair)
- tantek: agreed, a third would be good
- juan: might be able to chair, but not sure about time commitment, may know more in the next month
- juan: haven't run a CG before, have been active in another CG for a year
- evan: better to have more candidates for chairs than fewer!
- evan: nightpool and aaronpk have said they don't have sufficient bandwidth/time
- evan: one chair is ok, however more is better, for timezones, to help as a backup for meetings
- Tantek: Encourages a bias toward implementors in a chair role -- should be actively working with specs, keeps the group grounded
- tantek: process for volunteering?
- evan: email to the list, James sent an email
- james: has experience with some IndieWeb specs (WebSub, IndieAuth, jf2)
- evan: have you talked to aaron about chairing?
- james: yes, aaron has noted his inability to keep up with the time commitments for the group.
- james: my prior experience does not include CG chairing, looking for mentorship from a previous chair
- evan: have you talked to dmitri?
- james: yes, aaron has been talking with dmitri, haven't heard back in a few weeks
- evan: if you had the help of tantek and dmitri in getting started, the processes aren't overwhelming, and it would be great to have another hand
- evan: is there anything else that we would need?
- evan: would love to have a third person in that role too (chair)
- tantek: agreed, a third would be good
- bumblefudge: might be able to chair, but not sure about time commitment, may know more in the next month
- bumblefudge: haven't run a CG before, have been active in another CG for a year
- evan: better to have more candidates for chairs than fewer!

## Issue review

- Final 15 minutes dedicated to issue review?
- Weekly triage for issue queues
- Presently reviewing https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Needs+Group+Input%2FDecision%22
- Discussion on Issue #440: https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues/440
- Implementer feedback on issues
- Evan: Implementers, please see issue with this label:
- Evan: Implementers, please see issue with this label:
https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Needs+Group+Input%2FDecision%22
- ActivityStreams and ActivityPub triage process
- Evan: what do people think about how this is going?
Expand All @@ -83,11 +85,13 @@ https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22
- Evan: should be major part of agenda for next meeting
- Ben: would like to discuss regularly

## Housekeeping
- Meeting time
- Q: from James:
- Can I propose we move the meeting time back to allow for easier participation of people on the West Coast?
- Can we also choose a note-taking tool that does not require authentication? (i.e. Etherpad)
## Further Housekeeping

- Meeting time
- Q: from James:
- Can I propose we move the meeting time back to allow for easier participation of people on the West Coast?
- Can we also choose a note-taking tool that does not require authentication? (i.e. Etherpad)

## Action Items

- ben: document list of features that Meta would be interested in supporting with ActivityPub (e.g. limiting replies), share with list
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CPEC Code of Conduct: https://www.w3.org/Consortium/cepc/

### Participants
## Participants

* Kainoa Kanter
* James Gallagher
Expand All @@ -20,36 +20,37 @@ CPEC Code of Conduct: https://www.w3.org/Consortium/cepc/
* Bengo
* Todd

### Reading and Resource List
## Reading and Resource List

### General Information

#### General Information
* Recent Stanford report: https://cyber.fsi.stanford.edu/io/news/addressing-child-exploitation-federated-social-media ([Report PDF](https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:vb515nd6874/20230724-fediverse-csam-report.pdf))
* [Moderating the Fediverse: Content Moderation on Distributed Social Media](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4213674), Alan Z. Rozenshtein, 3 Journal of Free Speech Law 217 (2023)
* [User Generated Content and the Fediverse: A Legal Primer](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/12/user-generated-content-and-fediverse-legal-primer)
* [Notes on operating fediverse services (Mastodon, Pleroma etc) from an English law point of view](https://decoded.legal/blog/2022/11/notes-on-operating-fediverse-services-mastodon-pleroma-etc-from-an-english-law-point-of-view)
* [Scaling a public Mastodon instance: Legal, compliance, privacy and more](https://bottomlinelawgroup.com/2023/01/23/mastodon-instance-legal-compliance-privacy/?doing_wp_cron=1691167165.0044350624084472656250)

#### European Union
### European Union

* [Digital Service Act reporting requirements](https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/digital-services-act-package)
* Evidence-based recommendations on how to improve child safety (at least in the EU) are available from EDRi: https://edri.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/EDRi-Position-Paper-CSAR.pdf (posted by [@Federico on the SocialHub thread](https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/about-child-safety-on-federated-social-media/3447/8))

#### USA
### USA

* Q from Bob Wyman: "Are operators of ActivityPub instances considered to be "providers of electronic communication services or remote computing services" who, if in the USA, have a legal obligation to make reports to the [NCMEC](https://www.missingkids.org/)?"
* Answer from Darius Kazemi (with the biggest "I AM NOT A LAWYER" disclaimer ever): "Yes. Critically, the legal obligation comes once an operator is made aware of the presence of CSAM. An operator is not legally obligated to actively scan and search for CSAM material, and is not on the hook for material hosted that they do not know about, but rather they must report to [NCMEC](https://www.missingkids.org/) when they are made aware of the CSAM material. They must then retain a copy of material for 90 days (I believe to assist law enforcement if needed) and then must delete the material after 90 days."
* [federal statute](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2258A)
* [NCMEC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Center_for_Missing_%26_Exploited_Children)


#### Other Jurisdictions
### Other Jurisdictions

* Australia: https://icmec.org.au/
* New Zealand: https://www.dia.govt.nz/Digital-Safety-Report-Online-Child-Exploitation-material
* Canada: https://protectchildren.ca/en/
* United Kingdom: https://report.iwf.org.uk/org/

#### Tools and APIs
### Tools and APIs

* The community/moderation non-profit [IFTAS](https://about.iftas.org/) has been researching where and how some of offerings below may be incorporated into broader service offerings for instances/communities; their [matrix](https://matrix.to/#/#space:matrix.iftas.org) server is a good place to discuss, whether technically or not
* [PhotoDNA](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/photodna)
* [Overview of Google's toolkit](https://protectingchildren.google/tools-for-partners/)
Expand All @@ -63,11 +64,11 @@ CPEC Code of Conduct: https://www.w3.org/Consortium/cepc/
* [Alex shared this journal article introducing the problem space and families of solutions](https://tsjournal.org/index.php/jots/article/view/24/14)
* [ISCC - OS codebase that includes both content hashing and perceptual hashing](https://iscc.codes/)
* [Draft API dictionary](https://transparency.dsa.ec.europa.eu/page/api-documentation) and [API prototype](https://github.com/digital-services-act/transparency-database) for incoming [Digital Service Act reporting requirements](https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/digital-services-act-package)
- [A commentary on it by Daphne Keller](https://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2023/07/rushing-launch-eus-platform-database-experiment)
* [A commentary on it by Daphne Keller](https://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2023/07/rushing-launch-eus-platform-database-experiment)
* Cloudflare's CSAM scanning tool: https://blog.cloudflare.com/the-csam-scanning-tool/
* Tutorial on setting up the Cloudflare R2 tool with Firefish (formerly known as CalcKey): https://socialweb.coop/blog/firefish-cloudflare-quickfix-r2-tutorial/

### Agenda
## Agenda

1. Code of Ethics & Professional Conduct Reminder: https://www.w3.org/Consortium/cepc/
2. W3C Community Group Process and Governance: https://www.w3.org/community/about/process/
Expand All @@ -82,9 +83,9 @@ CPEC Code of Conduct: https://www.w3.org/Consortium/cepc/

* Bob: I am concerned that the report may be a bit misleading since it didn't provide jurisdiction-specific incidence rates. (i.e. In Japan, much of what others say is CSAM is actually legal and thus much more common than in EU and US.)

### Notes
## Notes

Juan: A few days ago, there was a post on SocialHub with the Standford CSAM report. In parallel to that, there's been a lot of interest in the Fediverse in moderation mechanics. When I stumbled into it, started asking questions and chasing threads, I realized that IFTAS have been doing a lot of research on this at various levels (Fediverse and beyond). There's a lot of related topics regarding moderation toolings that might be out of scope for this particular call. But CSAM may be a more narrow topic to start.
bumblefudge: A few days ago, there was a post on SocialHub with the Standford CSAM report. In parallel to that, there's been a lot of interest in the Fediverse in moderation mechanics. When I stumbled into it, started asking questions and chasing threads, I realized that IFTAS have been doing a lot of research on this at various levels (Fediverse and beyond). There's a lot of related topics regarding moderation toolings that might be out of scope for this particular call. But CSAM may be a more narrow topic to start.

EvanP: Stanford Internet Observatory is a research group that does security work at Stanford. They did a statistical analysis of output from the top 25 Mastodon servers (they were using public feeds from those servers), and they used industry standard APIs for doing checks for CSAM (PhotoDNA and Google Safe Search), doing scans for hashtags often used in child abuse circles for CSAM. They were able to identify 10s of thousands of CSAM items, which is what initiated the report, and resulted in a feature article about it. This kicked off a lot of discussion in the past several weeks.

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Call Notes: (will be archived over at https://github.com/swicg/meetings)

### Participants
## Participants

- Dmitri Zagidulin
- James Gallagher (jamesg.blog)
- Helge
Expand All @@ -19,7 +20,7 @@ Call Notes: (will be archived over at https://github.com/swicg/meetings)
- Bob Wyman
- Angelo Gladding

### Agenda
## Agenda

Welcome to the SocialWeb Community Group!

Expand All @@ -36,7 +37,7 @@ https://www.w3.org/community/about/agreements/cla/
- (5-10 min) Presentation/demo by Darius Kazemi on activitypub-tool
- (remaining time) Discussion and next steps

### Notes
## Notes

Evan: Question in terms of scope - when we talk of specs, we have AS2 spec, and AP (which is the protocol & client API). Is the scope primarily about protocol, not data model?

Expand Down Expand Up @@ -122,12 +123,12 @@ Johannes: I love what I'm seeing here - and there's almost no overlap, which is

Ryan: Thanks, congrats for everyone who presented here, thank you to the organizers - timely conversations! Two ideas I've seen are very powerful from my development -- first is collecting the behaviors and data independent of code, like Helge and Bengo just talked about! That's hard enough, before even making specific drivers or language implementations. Collecting behaviors, variants, etc. Very helpful.

Darius: yeah! honestly this gist of random objects I copy/pasted in the wild has been as useful to me as anything else
Darius: yeah! honestly this gist of random objects I copy/pasted in the wild has been as useful to me as anything else
https://gist.github.com/dariusk/e0aa9a0b4229c47dec2bc57cc6bb0994

Ryan: The other thing I've seen that's really powerful -- if we can lower the barrier to running a test suite (for example, against a live server on the internet)

Evan: Having a test suite for our social API was one of SocialWeb WG was one of the charter requirements. The test suite we have, developed by Christine, is very manual. Do we have a requirement / responsibility, as SWICG today in 2023, to have that suite available, or some other test suite available?
Evan: Having a test suite for our social API was one of SocialWeb WG was one of the charter requirements. The test suite we have, developed by Christine, is very manual. Do we have a requirement / responsibility, as SWICG today in 2023, to have that suite available, or some other test suite available?

Dmitri: Definitely a great question, let's continue this discussion!

Expand All @@ -143,8 +144,8 @@ Tim Chambers: https://indieweb.social/@activitypubtestsuite@venera.social

Evan and Dmitri: Also, [TPAC 2023](https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/) is coming up, a hybrid event (online and in Seville, Spain), let's continue the conversation there too!

Bob Wyman (in chat): How could our SocialWeb protocols be used (or extended) to make this kind of distributed development and testing easier for everyone?
Bob Wyman (in chat): How could our SocialWeb protocols be used (or extended) to make this kind of distributed development and testing easier for everyone?

bengo (to Evan, re whether the WG charter applies to SWICG): I think we mostly agree. I think we best steward them by encouraging parallel development of many testing tools, learning from their development, and accepting contributions into the CG, not by developing it in a top-down way in-group, and I don't excpect everyone to agree
bengo (to Evan, re whether the WG charter applies to SWICG): I think we mostly agree. I think we best steward them by encouraging parallel development of many testing tools, learning from their development, and accepting contributions into the CG, not by developing it in a top-down way in-group, and I don't excpect everyone to agree

Dmitri: Thanks everyone! Let's continue the conversation on our lists / forums!
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Minutes [here](https://www.w3.org/2023/03/29-social-minutes.html)
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- bengo: we COULD start connecting my AP work to helge's and stevebate's drivers (by behavior)
- Angelo: web-based "are we _ yet?" site worth making? is that a goal?
- bengo (in chat)
- juan: I would say it's worth doing for the easy tests but realistically couldn't be complete/exhaustive for conformance OR interop purposes
- bumblefudge: I would say it's worth doing for the easy tests but realistically couldn't be complete/exhaustive for conformance OR interop purposes
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