Change sampled seeds to inherit the plant's health instead of needing harvestability

[PolterTzi]

About the PR

Makes changes to seeds and plant holders so now clipped seeds keep the modified health of the sampled plant
Also reverts/replaces the changes from #24851

Why / Balance

Attempting to serve as a potential alternative to #24851.
It doesn't revert back to the previous state of effectively free sampling, while still allowing taking samples without needing to wait for growth.

Compared to the current state, it would likely make botany more powerful, but still requiring more resource management than it did before the nerf.

Inspired by the comment here: #25320 (comment)

Technical details

Adds a health value to the Seed packet component that keeps track of the resulting plant's health.

Media

sampling.mp4

• I have added screenshots/videos to this PR showcasing its changes ingame, or this PR does not require an ingame showcase

Breaking changes

Added a health field to SeedComponent
Added an optional health argument to SpawnSeedPacket
I don't think it should break anything.

Changelog

🆑

• tweak: Seeds from sampled plants now inherit the sampled plant's health to discourage excessive sampling.
• tweak: Plants need to grow a bit before being sampled.

[Partmedia]

Thank you for your contribution. I think this is an idea in the right direction. Would you also be willing to implement the other part of the suggestion, which is to allow sampling only after a certain growth stage, but a bit earlier than the current harvest stage?

[PolterTzi]

Would you also be willing to implement the other part of the suggestion, which is to allow sampling only after a certain growth stage, but a bit earlier than the current harvest stage?

I would hope that would not be necessary, Without healing the implementation here allows for 3 or so samples from a plant and all of them would be at at most 40 health with optimal rolls.

That said, I think I could add that requirement if it is necessary.

[Partmedia]

I agree that this will probably mitigate the issue somewhat. I still think it would be better, more physical, and make more sense to require some amount of growth time before a plant can be clipped.

[ViceEmargo]

I have not gotten the chance to play Botany since PartMedia's clipper PR. Are you only able to clip a plant once after it his the harvestable state?
If so, this change looks nice as it still allows me to spread 1 fully-robusted plant into multiple trays and beyond.

[PolterTzi]

This might be a bit ugly, but this should make sure the plant is at least in its stage 2.

[ViceEmargo]

Could you explain to me how this if statement works? I don't quite understand what the (int) does at the beginning,
neither do I really understand the math.
if ((int) (component.Age * component.Seed.GrowthStages / component.Seed.Maturation)<=1)

[PolterTzi]

Could you explain to me how this if statement works? I don't quite understand what the (int) does at the beginning, neither do I really understand the math. if ((int) (component.Age * component.Seed.GrowthStages / component.Seed.Maturation)<=1)

Lifted straight from the section that calculates growth stages to call the right sprite.
The int is there because the int was there in the sprite code, so it should preserve the rounding.

Basically, AFAIK, Maturity is how long the seed takes to grow to its full development, Age is how old the current plant is. GrowthStages is how many stages the plant has.
Consider it in this order: You divide the age by maturity to get how far along the grow progress the plant is in percentiles. Then multiply it by the amount of stages to determine the stage it lands on. Cast it to int to round it to a whole number.

The <=1 is meant to guarantee it would reach at least the second stage before being able to be cut.

[Partmedia]

Please review our whitespace conventions.

[Partmedia]

As before, please note whitespace conventions.

Also, since this calculation is not super obvious, it may be better to factor out the common computation into a function (e.g. GetCurrentGrowthStage()) instead of copy/paste.

[PolterTzi]

Ok, that's what I get for being hasty.
This should hopefully be about right now.

[Partmedia]

Sorry to nitpick, but whitespace here still

[Partmedia]

whitespace

[Partmedia]

These don't have to be re-declared as local variables.

[PolterTzi]

Ah, right, that's from when I was trying to catch where the null reference issue was.

[Partmedia]

These don't have to be re-declared as local variables.

[Partmedia]

These don't have to be re-declared as local variables.

[PolterTzi]

Ok, I think that should mostly cover it.

[Partmedia]

Thank you for your (first!) PR. Your work helps improve the game for everyone.

[Cyber-Finn]

wouldnt this break immersion, since it's not how botany works IRL? (Not every seed inherits a genetic defect from its' predecessor)
It also massively nerfs Botany - which is mostly a 1-man-job (Since your partners always run off somewhere else).

On HRP servers - and other servers where shifts are longer than 50min, this is going to cause botanists to become overstressed (And people to no longer take the role) - as seeds, for some reason, age and inherit the health of the parent..

[deltanedas]

they arent seeds they are grafts

if you want fresh seeds grow it to maturity then extract seeds from the produce which makes sense

[ThatOneGoblin25]

they arent seeds they are grafts

if you want fresh seeds grow it to maturity then extract seeds from the produce which makes sense

Moot point because no mutations or traits are saved by the seeds spat out by the extractor.

[deltanedas]

that has to be fake why would anyone use extractor

[PolterTzi]

I'll be honest, this was somewhat hastily implemented in response to the previous nerf. I think some degree of samples keeping damage is "realistic" (they aren't seeds per-se, it's meant to represent part of the plant being cut so it can grow elsewhere), but I wouldn't say it's out of the question that the damage might use some reeling in one way or another.
We'll have to see how the game reacts (players will probably not like it at first, but that's the usual for nerfs).

Moot point because no mutations or traits are saved by the seeds spat out by the extractor.

That's either a bug or factually incorrect.

[bobangaming]

why have these nerfs in the first place? what kind of balance issue are you trying to fix?

I don't understand how are you trying to fix some issue by ruining a fundamental part of botany.

[Partmedia]

why have these nerfs in the first place? what kind of balance issue are you trying to fix?

Please spend two seconds looking for the relevant context and discussions on GitHub and Discord. Since you likely didn't even try to look, or had trouble finding the relevant information, I've linked them below for your convenience:

• Plant genetics #11407
• Require plants to be harvestable before sampling #24851
• Revert "Require plants to be harvestable before sampling" #25320
• Change sampled seeds to inherit the plant's health instead of needing harvestability #25326

Please read the linked discussions thoroughly to see what has already been said for both sides before you continue the discussion.

[bobangaming]

why have these nerfs in the first place? what kind of balance issue are you trying to fix?

Please spend two seconds looking for the relevant context and discussions on GitHub and Discord. Since you likely didn't even try to look, or had trouble finding the relevant information, I've linked them below for your convenience:

* [Plant genetics #11407](https://github.com/space-wizards/space-station-14/pull/11407)

* [Require plants to be harvestable before sampling #24851](https://github.com/space-wizards/space-station-14/pull/24851)

* [Revert "Require plants to be harvestable before sampling" #25320](https://github.com/space-wizards/space-station-14/pull/25320)

* [Change sampled seeds to inherit the plant's health instead of needing harvestability #25326](https://github.com/space-wizards/space-station-14/pull/25326)

Please read the linked discussions thoroughly to see what has already been said for both sides before you continue the discussion.

Yes, I've read them. There is no reason for those nerfs, since what the person is describing is unviable, since clipped seeds will inherit any bad mutations that are on the plant, therefore making the plant useless and wasting seeds. The initial complaint that this person had was wrong and so, you are the one who didn't "spend two seconds looking for the relevant context and discussions on GitHub and Discord".

[Partmedia]

There is no reason for those nerfs, since what the person is describing is unviable, since clipped seeds will inherit any bad mutations that are on the plant, therefore making the plant useless and wasting seeds.

This logic completely misses the main point. The main point, which can be gleaned with some critical reading of the linked discussions, is that clipping bypasses the seedless trait. The seedless trait is supposed to make it hard for you to duplicate very strong plants by making them not have seeds. Plant clipper "sampling" lets you obtain a seed, bypassing the seedless limitation. That, and not the straw man problem you identified, is the main problem.

[bobangaming]

There is no reason for those nerfs, since what the person is describing is unviable, since clipped seeds will inherit any bad mutations that are on the plant, therefore making the plant useless and wasting seeds.

This logic completely misses the main point. The main point, which can be gleaned with some critical reading of the linked discussions, is that clipping bypasses the seedless trait. The seedless trait is supposed to make it hard for you to duplicate very strong plants by making them not have seeds. Plant clipper "sampling" lets you obtain a seed, bypassing the seedless limitation. That, and not the straw man problem you identified, is the main problem.

Yes, there is no issue with clippers being used to extract seeds from seedless plants. That's how they are intended to be used

[mirrorcult]

Yes, there is no issue with clippers being used to extract seeds from seedless plants. That's how they are intended to be used

so you're aware, @Partmedia is the person who implemented the seedless trait, as is obvious from the PR #11407 they linked--i dont think an argument from intentionality applies here

[bobangaming]

Yes, there is no issue with clippers being used to extract seeds from seedless plants. That's how they are intended to be used

so you're aware, @Partmedia is the person who implemented the seedless trait, as is obvious from the PR #11407 they linked--i dont think an argument from intentionality applies here

well otherwise what's the point of the trait and having 2 ways of getting seeds? It doesn't make sense any other way

[mehx3]

What if you balance the botany around "unintentional" mechanic that people actually enjoyed and it made botany way more in depth. Players made botany PRs around an assumption that botany is working fine and everything really was fine(aside from flukies getting nettled). Worst part is - really strong plants like amatoxin nettle and ambrosia deus are still easy-ish to get, but everything else requires much more time. Also getting seedless is guaranteed if you are trying to make any kind of interesting plant, so you basically can't use seed extractor ever. I don't get why spamming seeds is such a terrible thing. Why care about realism when everything else is unrealistic?

[PolterTzi]

I think the issue is less just the simple fact that it circumvents the trait at all and more the fact that without the nerf it effectively circumvented it entirely, allowing for virtually infinite replication of seedless plants.
Which also made the seed maker obsolete.
I'm not gonna argue the current state is perfect, but at least it leans more towards the direction of involving more of botany's mechanics (even if you could argue it's flawed in the specifics).

[mehx3]

I think the issue is less just the simple fact that it circumvents the trait at all and more the fact that without the nerf it effectively circumvented it entirely, allowing for virtually infinite replication of seedless plants. Which also made the seed maker obsolete. I'm not gonna argue the current state is perfect, but at least it leans more towards the direction of involving more of botany's mechanics (even if you could argue it's flawed in the specifics).

Current state would've been fine, if you could actually grow any plant, get produce and get seeds. But using robust to get 50 potency guarantees seedless and using swabs guarantees seedless as well. So realistically you can never use seed extractor. Players didn't use clippers to circumvent seed extractor, they used them because it's the only way to reliably get seeds and it's still is, even after this PR

[bobangaming]

I think the issue is less just the simple fact that it circumvents the trait at all and more the fact that without the nerf it effectively circumvented it entirely, allowing for virtually infinite replication of seedless plants. Which also made the seed maker obsolete. I'm not gonna argue the current state is perfect, but at least it leans more towards the direction of involving more of botany's mechanics (even if you could argue it's flawed in the specifics).

then how about you change seedless plants so that they can't be clipped, instead of making the entirety of botany worse

edit: oh wait, I thought you are talking about seedless plants as a mutation, not pollenated/robust harvest'ed plants, nvm then

[mehx3]

then how about you change seedless plants so that they can't be clipped, instead of making the entirety of botany worse

So no way to get seeds from almost any modified plant? Great idea!

[bobangaming]

then how about you change seedless plants so that they can't be clipped, instead of making the entirety of botany worse

So no way to get seeds from almost any modified plant? Great idea!

yeah, only now realised what they meant

[deltanedas]

clipping should give a graft not a seed packet since it isnt seeds its a cutting of it + where is the packet material coming from