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Fix inconsistent rounding of 0.5 when formatted to 0 decimal places #102935
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r? @m-ou-se (rust-highfive has picked a reviewer for you, use r? to override) |
Hey! It looks like you've submitted a new PR for the library teams! If this PR contains changes to any Examples of
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I've run a comparison for the formats |
@rustbot label +T-libs-api -T-libs |
Quick demonstration that .0 is rounding odd while the other numbers of decimal places are rounding even:
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And just to show that it is specifically the behaviour of 0.5 that is the issue here:
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Oh! I hadn't realized it was just @rust-lang/libs-api would you be comfortable calling this a bug that can just be fixed, or do you need an FCP for it? |
I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding, I found a lot of other values, as shown in #70336 (for "to even" as well as "away from zero"). I was originally thinking it was supposed to round away from zero, but if fmt is supposed to round to even, I can adapt my test to hunt all the values down. Unless you're talking about the fix?
EDIT: testing all the values at different depth (with a '5' at depth+1), I found about 50% of wrong rounding in the original fmt, no matter which mode (slightly fewer errors if we expect even but it's negligible). I haven't tested more complicated cases. |
Remember that anything that's not a multiple of an integer power of two doesn't really exist in floating-point numbers.
0.34999999999999997779553950749686919152736663818359375 And thus it rounds down https://float.exposed/0x3fd6666666666666 Similarly, 0.155 and 0.165 are 0.1549999999999999988897769753748434595763683319091796875 And thus they're not actually ties either. It makes sense that you'd get about 50% of them rounding the other way, because for things that aren't representable exactly, you'd expect about 50% of them to be slightly too big and 50% of them to be slightly too small. (I also made this mistake originally, but realized in time, and thus my examples above all use fractions where the denominator is a power of two -- ½, ¼, ¾, ⅛, ⅞, 1⁄16.) Edit: Oh, hi @ajtribick, apparently we were racing on this one 😅 |
@scottmcm @ajtribick
I suppose the current algorithms operate differently. Yet it's strange that it fails on 50% of the ties, that's a lot. |
@blueglyph - as I understand it, Dragonbox is an algorithm for producing the shortest roundtrippable representation of a floating point value (i.e. the operation corresponding to the FWIW #include <array>
#include <charconv>
#include <iostream>
#include <string_view>
#include <system_error>
int main()
{
std::array<double, 7> values = { 0.5, 0.25, 0.75, 0.125, 0.35, 0.155, 0.165 };
std::array<char, 10> buffer{ 0 };
for (double value : values)
{
if (auto [ptr, ec] = std::to_chars(buffer.data(), buffer.data() + buffer.size(), value, std::chars_format::fixed); ec == std::errc{})
{
std::cout << std::string_view(buffer.data(), ptr - buffer.data());
}
else
{
std::cout << "(FAIL)";
}
for (int precision = 0; precision < 3; ++precision)
{
if (auto [ptr, ec] = std::to_chars(buffer.data(), buffer.data() + buffer.size(), value, std::chars_format::fixed, precision); ec == std::errc{})
{
std::cout << '\t' << std::string_view(buffer.data(), ptr - buffer.data());
}
else
{
std::cout << "\t(FAIL)";
}
}
std::cout << '\n';
}
} gives the following output (first column is shortest representation, followed by fixed precisions of 0, 1, 2 decimal places):
|
@blueglyph Note that floating-point algorithms are expected to treat the floating point number as if the represented value was exactly the desired value, and not to attempt to divine whether it came from rounding something else. That's why, for example, it's absolutely correct that |
Dragonbox is an algorithm to convert a binary floating-point value into a correctly rounded decimal representation. From there I don't see what you wouldn't be able to reduce the precision as you wish. But it is arguably another algorithm than the one used. |
I would agree for operations on floating-points (*), but I'm not convinced it's true for their decimal representation, since we know the base 2 representation is not exactly the desired value, as we saw earlier. (*) although they are rounded to even to prevent bias errors, so in a way we are already "attempting to divine" whether they should be pre-processed in the case of accumulation.
PI is an irrational number, so the problem is different, and we're not applying the perfect |
The output of Dragonbox is "correctly rounded" in the sense that it gives the shortest possible decimal representation of the value that can be parsed to give back the exact same input. It does not produce the exact representation of the numerical value of the variable. Note that rounding twice is not equivalent to rounding once, e.g. in decimal mathematics:
Reducing the precision of the Dragonbox output is likewise performing double rounding, and will lead to different results than rounding the value directly. The value of In any case, I fear this is going off on an irrelevant tangent to the change being done here: the value of 0.5 is exactly representable as both |
I'm not sure what you mean by decimal representation here. Do you agree that this is correct?
|
I'm sorry this is going out of the initial topic, but this claims to solve #70336 and my argument is about that part. If more appropriate, it could be discussed elsewhere. Grisu, like Dragonbox, aim to convert a binary-coded floating points to a decimal representation which is correct (in the sense mentioned earlier, the parsed decimal representation yields the same binary coding). Here the coding is typically IEEE-754, with a current focus on double precision. The above conclusion "thus should be rounded down when rounding to 1 decimal place" seems strange to me, because there is no way to assert that. For example, 0.35 is coded like this:
The value has been rounded to the 54-bit normalized mantissa using the round-even method, and indeed it's not a tie anymore (in decimal representation). If I increase the mantissa, I get this value:
which is on the other side of the tie. So we see here that the error introduced when parsing "0.35" and initially rounding the value to code it as an f64 doesn't allow us to deduce on which side of the tie the initial value was. Thus the operation that Dragonbox (or Grisu, Ryu, etc) does to minimize the output length while preserving the information and keeping a "correct" output, is not wrong. And it looks like it's more likely to be what the initial value was when it matters:
At least that's how I understand the asymmetric problem of coding and displaying floating-point values respectively in base 2 and 10. If we come back to the initial problem to solve, the current solution seems to be wrong in about 50% of the cases, which is a lot. So I'm only wondering whether there could be another problem than just the case of 0.5, but maybe in the scope of another code change. I'll stop here, however, and sorry again if that was not the place.
I mean by that the decimal interpretation of the value which is coded in binary (IEEE-754). How the value is printed, if you will. Hopefully the first part of my post already clarified that. :) I don't see the point of the last question. |
I claim this issue solves #70336 because it addresses the issue as described in the very first post there: the rounding of half-integer values follows round-ties-to-even rules except for the case of 0.5. If you need to have 0.35 behave as exactly halfway between 0.3 and 0.4, finite-length binary floating point types like |
If you might want it as a bisection point it probably ought to be rollup=never, i was about to include it in a rollup 😄 @bors rollup=never |
⌛ Testing commit aa9837b with merge 9486a40a00853a33b000cd654ce485d6acc4c753... |
💔 Test failed - checks-actions |
I couldn't find any actual failures here, and apparently neither could @rust-log-analyzer, so |
☀️ Test successful - checks-actions |
Finished benchmarking commit (e702534): comparison URL. Overall result: ❌ regressions - no action needed@rustbot label: -perf-regression Instruction countThis is a highly reliable metric that was used to determine the overall result at the top of this comment.
Max RSS (memory usage)ResultsThis is a less reliable metric that may be of interest but was not used to determine the overall result at the top of this comment.
CyclesThis benchmark run did not return any relevant results for this metric. |
28: Avoid change in float rounding behaviour in tests r=Nemo157 a=Nemo157 rust-lang/rust#102935 changed the behaviour of `format!("{:.0}", 0.5)` to round to 0 instead of 1 for consistency. The test case I copied from `std` was using this, so change to using 1.5 which has the same behaviour on stable and nightly. Co-authored-by: Wim Looman <git@nemo157.com>
… r=scottmcm Fix inconsistent rounding of 0.5 when formatted to 0 decimal places As described in rust-lang#70336, when displaying values to zero decimal places the value of 0.5 is rounded to 1, which is inconsistent with the display of other half-integer values which round to even. From testing the flt2dec implementation, it looks like this comes down to the condition in the fixed-width Dragon implementation where an empty buffer is treated as a case to apply rounding up. I believe the change below fixes it and updates only the relevant tests. Nevertheless I am aware this is very much a core piece of functionality, so please take a very careful look to make sure I haven't missed anything. I hope this change does not break anything in the wider ecosystem as having a consistent rounding behaviour in floating point formatting is in my opinion a useful feature to have. Resolves rust-lang#70336
Pkgsrc changes: * Adjust patches and cargo checksums to new versions, but also one strange "mips" conditional. Upstream changes: Version 1.67.0 (2023-01-26) ========================== Language -------- - [Make `Sized` predicates coinductive, allowing cycles.] (rust-lang/rust#100386) - [`#[must_use]` annotations on `async fn` also affect the `Future::Output`.] (rust-lang/rust#100633) - [Elaborate supertrait obligations when deducing closure signatures.] (rust-lang/rust#101834) - [Invalid literals are no longer an error under `cfg(FALSE)`.] (rust-lang/rust#102944) - [Unreserve braced enum variants in value namespace.] (rust-lang/rust#103578) Compiler -------- - [Enable varargs support for calling conventions other than `C` or `cdecl`.] (rust-lang/rust#97971) - [Add new MIR constant propagation based on dataflow analysis.] (rust-lang/rust#101168) - [Optimize field ordering by grouping m\*2^n-sized fields with equivalently aligned ones.] (rust-lang/rust#102750) - [Stabilize native library modifier `verbatim`.] (rust-lang/rust#104360) Added and removed targets: - [Add a tier 3 target for PowerPC on AIX] (rust-lang/rust#102293), `powerpc64-ibm-aix`. - [Add a tier 3 target for the Sony PlayStation 1] (rust-lang/rust#102689), `mipsel-sony-psx`. - [Add tier 3 `no_std` targets for the QNX Neutrino RTOS] (rust-lang/rust#102701), `aarch64-unknown-nto-qnx710` and `x86_64-pc-nto-qnx710`. - [Remove tier 3 `linuxkernel` targets] (rust-lang/rust#104015) (not used by the actual kernel). Refer to Rust's [platform support page][platform-support-doc] for more information on Rust's tiered platform support. Libraries --------- - [Merge `crossbeam-channel` into `std::sync::mpsc`.] (rust-lang/rust#93563) - [Fix inconsistent rounding of 0.5 when formatted to 0 decimal places.] (rust-lang/rust#102935) - [Derive `Eq` and `Hash` for `ControlFlow`.] (rust-lang/rust#103084) - [Don't build `compiler_builtins` with `-C panic=abort`.] (rust-lang/rust#103786) Stabilized APIs --------------- - [`{integer}::checked_ilog`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/primitive.i32.html#method.checked_ilog) - [`{integer}::checked_ilog2`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/primitive.i32.html#method.checked_ilog2) - [`{integer}::checked_ilog10`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/primitive.i32.html#method.checked_ilog10) - [`{integer}::ilog`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/primitive.i32.html#method.ilog) - [`{integer}::ilog2`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/primitive.i32.html#method.ilog2) - [`{integer}::ilog10`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/primitive.i32.html#method.ilog10) - [`NonZeroU*::ilog2`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/num/struct.NonZeroU32.html#method.ilog2) - [`NonZeroU*::ilog10`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/num/struct.NonZeroU32.html#method.ilog10) - [`NonZero*::BITS`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/num/struct.NonZeroU32.html#associatedconstant.BITS) These APIs are now stable in const contexts: - [`char::from_u32`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/primitive.char.html#method.from_u32) - [`char::from_digit`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/primitive.char.html#method.from_digit) - [`char::to_digit`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/primitive.char.html#method.to_digit) - [`core::char::from_u32`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/core/char/fn.from_u32.html) - [`core::char::from_digit`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/core/char/fn.from_digit.html) Compatibility Notes ------------------- - [The layout of `repr(Rust)` types now groups m\*2^n-sized fields with equivalently aligned ones.] (rust-lang/rust#102750) This is intended to be an optimization, but it is also known to increase type sizes in a few cases for the placement of enum tags. As a reminder, the layout of `repr(Rust)` types is an implementation detail, subject to change. - [0.5 now rounds to 0 when formatted to 0 decimal places.] (rust-lang/rust#102935) This makes it consistent with the rest of floating point formatting that rounds ties toward even digits. - [Chains of `&&` and `||` will now drop temporaries from their sub-expressions in evaluation order, left-to-right.] (rust-lang/rust#103293) Previously, it was "twisted" such that the _first_ expression dropped its temporaries _last_, after all of the other expressions dropped in order. - [Underscore suffixes on string literals are now a hard error.] (rust-lang/rust#103914) This has been a future-compatibility warning since 1.20.0. - [Stop passing `-export-dynamic` to `wasm-ld`.] (rust-lang/rust#105405) - [`main` is now mangled as `__main_void` on `wasm32-wasi`.] (rust-lang/rust#105468) - [Cargo now emits an error if there are multiple registries in the configuration with the same index URL.] (rust-lang/cargo#10592) Internal Changes ---------------- These changes do not affect any public interfaces of Rust, but they represent significant improvements to the performance or internals of rustc and related tools. - [Rewrite LLVM's archive writer in Rust.] (rust-lang/rust#97485)
Pkgsrc changes: * Adjust patches (add & remove) and cargo checksums to new versions. * It's conceivable that the workaround for LLVM based NetBSD works even less in this version (ref. PKGSRC_HAVE_LIBCPP not having a corresponding patch anymore). Upstream changes: Version 1.68.2 (2023-03-28) =========================== - [Update the GitHub RSA host key bundled within Cargo] (rust-lang/cargo#11883). The key was [rotated by GitHub] (https://github.blog/2023-03-23-we-updated-our-rsa-ssh-host-key/) on 2023-03-24 after the old one leaked. - [Mark the old GitHub RSA host key as revoked] (rust-lang/cargo#11889). This will prevent Cargo from accepting the leaked key even when trusted by the system. - [Add support for `@revoked` and a better error message for `@cert-authority` in Cargo's SSH host key verification] (rust-lang/cargo#11635) Version 1.68.1 (2023-03-23) =========================== - [Fix miscompilation in produced Windows MSVC artifacts] (rust-lang/rust#109094) This was introduced by enabling ThinLTO for the distributed rustc which led to miscompilations in the resulting binary. Currently this is believed to be limited to the -Zdylib-lto flag used for rustc compilation, rather than a general bug in ThinLTO, so only rustc artifacts should be affected. - [Fix --enable-local-rust builds] (rust-lang/rust#109111) - [Treat `$prefix-clang` as `clang` in linker detection code] (rust-lang/rust#109156) - [Fix panic in compiler code] (rust-lang/rust#108162) Version 1.68.0 (2023-03-09) =========================== Language -------- - [Stabilize default_alloc_error_handler] (rust-lang/rust#102318) This allows usage of `alloc` on stable without requiring the definition of a handler for allocation failure. Defining custom handlers is still unstable. - [Stabilize `efiapi` calling convention.] (rust-lang/rust#105795) - [Remove implicit promotion for types with drop glue] (rust-lang/rust#105085) Compiler -------- - [Change `bindings_with_variant_name` to deny-by-default] (rust-lang/rust#104154) - [Allow .. to be parsed as let initializer] (rust-lang/rust#105701) - [Add `armv7-sony-vita-newlibeabihf` as a tier 3 target] (rust-lang/rust#105712) - [Always check alignment during compile-time const evaluation] (rust-lang/rust#104616) - [Disable "split dwarf inlining" by default.] (rust-lang/rust#106709) - [Add vendor to Fuchsia's target triple] (rust-lang/rust#106429) - [Enable sanitizers for s390x-linux] (rust-lang/rust#107127) Libraries --------- - [Loosen the bound on the Debug implementation of Weak.] (rust-lang/rust#90291) - [Make `std::task::Context` !Send and !Sync] (rust-lang/rust#95985) - [PhantomData layout guarantees] (rust-lang/rust#104081) - [Don't derive Debug for `OnceWith` & `RepeatWith`] (rust-lang/rust#104163) - [Implement DerefMut for PathBuf] (rust-lang/rust#105018) - [Add O(1) `Vec -> VecDeque` conversion guarantee] (rust-lang/rust#105128) - [Leak amplification for peek_mut() to ensure BinaryHeap's invariant is always met] (rust-lang/rust#105851) Stabilized APIs --------------- - [`{core,std}::pin::pin!`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/pin/macro.pin.html) - [`impl From<bool> for {f32,f64}`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/primitive.f32.html#impl-From%3Cbool%3E-for-f32) - [`std::path::MAIN_SEPARATOR_STR`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/path/constant.MAIN_SEPARATOR_STR.html) - [`impl DerefMut for PathBuf`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/path/struct.PathBuf.html#impl-DerefMut-for-PathBuf) These APIs are now stable in const contexts: - [`VecDeque::new`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/collections/struct.VecDeque.html#method.new) Cargo ----- - [Stabilize sparse registry support for crates.io] (rust-lang/cargo#11224) - [`cargo build --verbose` tells you more about why it recompiles.] (rust-lang/cargo#11407) - [Show progress of crates.io index update even `net.git-fetch-with-cli` option enabled] (rust-lang/cargo#11579) Misc ---- Compatibility Notes ------------------- - [Add `SEMICOLON_IN_EXPRESSIONS_FROM_MACROS` to future-incompat report] (rust-lang/rust#103418) - [Only specify `--target` by default for `-Zgcc-ld=lld` on wasm] (rust-lang/rust#101792) - [Bump `IMPLIED_BOUNDS_ENTAILMENT` to Deny + ReportNow] (rust-lang/rust#106465) - [`std::task::Context` no longer implements Send and Sync] (rust-lang/rust#95985) nternal Changes ---------------- These changes do not affect any public interfaces of Rust, but they represent significant improvements to the performance or internals of rustc and related tools. - [Encode spans relative to the enclosing item] (rust-lang/rust#84762) - [Don't normalize in AstConv] (rust-lang/rust#101947) - [Find the right lower bound region in the scenario of partial order relations] (rust-lang/rust#104765) - [Fix impl block in const expr] (rust-lang/rust#104889) - [Check ADT fields for copy implementations considering regions] (rust-lang/rust#105102) - [rustdoc: simplify JS search routine by not messing with lev distance] (rust-lang/rust#105796) - [Enable ThinLTO for rustc on `x86_64-pc-windows-msvc`] (rust-lang/rust#103591) - [Enable ThinLTO for rustc on `x86_64-apple-darwin`] (rust-lang/rust#103647) Version 1.67.0 (2023-01-26) ========================== Language -------- - [Make `Sized` predicates coinductive, allowing cycles.] (rust-lang/rust#100386) - [`#[must_use]` annotations on `async fn` also affect the `Future::Output`.] (rust-lang/rust#100633) - [Elaborate supertrait obligations when deducing closure signatures.] (rust-lang/rust#101834) - [Invalid literals are no longer an error under `cfg(FALSE)`.] (rust-lang/rust#102944) - [Unreserve braced enum variants in value namespace.] (rust-lang/rust#103578) Compiler -------- - [Enable varargs support for calling conventions other than `C` or `cdecl`.] (rust-lang/rust#97971) - [Add new MIR constant propagation based on dataflow analysis.] (rust-lang/rust#101168) - [Optimize field ordering by grouping m\*2^n-sized fields with equivalently aligned ones.] (rust-lang/rust#102750) - [Stabilize native library modifier `verbatim`.] (rust-lang/rust#104360) Added and removed targets: - [Add a tier 3 target for PowerPC on AIX] (rust-lang/rust#102293), `powerpc64-ibm-aix`. - [Add a tier 3 target for the Sony PlayStation 1] (rust-lang/rust#102689), `mipsel-sony-psx`. - [Add tier 3 `no_std` targets for the QNX Neutrino RTOS] (rust-lang/rust#102701), `aarch64-unknown-nto-qnx710` and `x86_64-pc-nto-qnx710`. - [Remove tier 3 `linuxkernel` targets] (rust-lang/rust#104015) (not used by the actual kernel). Refer to Rust's [platform support page][platform-support-doc] for more information on Rust's tiered platform support. Libraries --------- - [Merge `crossbeam-channel` into `std::sync::mpsc`.] (rust-lang/rust#93563) - [Fix inconsistent rounding of 0.5 when formatted to 0 decimal places.] (rust-lang/rust#102935) - [Derive `Eq` and `Hash` for `ControlFlow`.] (rust-lang/rust#103084) - [Don't build `compiler_builtins` with `-C panic=abort`.] (rust-lang/rust#103786) Stabilized APIs --------------- - [`{integer}::checked_ilog`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/primitive.i32.html#method.checked_ilog) - [`{integer}::checked_ilog2`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/primitive.i32.html#method.checked_ilog2) - [`{integer}::checked_ilog10`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/primitive.i32.html#method.checked_ilog10) - [`{integer}::ilog`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/primitive.i32.html#method.ilog) - [`{integer}::ilog2`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/primitive.i32.html#method.ilog2) - [`{integer}::ilog10`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/primitive.i32.html#method.ilog10) - [`NonZeroU*::ilog2`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/num/struct.NonZeroU32.html#method.ilog2) - [`NonZeroU*::ilog10`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/num/struct.NonZeroU32.html#method.ilog10) - [`NonZero*::BITS`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/num/struct.NonZeroU32.html#associatedconstant.BITS) These APIs are now stable in const contexts: - [`char::from_u32`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/primitive.char.html#method.from_u32) - [`char::from_digit`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/primitive.char.html#method.from_digit) - [`char::to_digit`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/primitive.char.html#method.to_digit) - [`core::char::from_u32`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/core/char/fn.from_u32.html) - [`core::char::from_digit`] (https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/core/char/fn.from_digit.html) Compatibility Notes ------------------- - [The layout of `repr(Rust)` types now groups m\*2^n-sized fields with equivalently aligned ones.] (rust-lang/rust#102750) This is intended to be an optimization, but it is also known to increase type sizes in a few cases for the placement of enum tags. As a reminder, the layout of `repr(Rust)` types is an implementation detail, subject to change. - [0.5 now rounds to 0 when formatted to 0 decimal places.] (rust-lang/rust#102935) This makes it consistent with the rest of floating point formatting that rounds ties toward even digits. - [Chains of `&&` and `||` will now drop temporaries from their sub-expressions in evaluation order, left-to-right.] (rust-lang/rust#103293) Previously, it was "twisted" such that the _first_ expression dropped its temporaries _last_, after all of the other expressions dropped in order. - [Underscore suffixes on string literals are now a hard error.] (rust-lang/rust#103914) This has been a future-compatibility warning since 1.20.0. - [Stop passing `-export-dynamic` to `wasm-ld`.] (rust-lang/rust#105405) - [`main` is now mangled as `__main_void` on `wasm32-wasi`.] (rust-lang/rust#105468) - [Cargo now emits an error if there are multiple registries in the configuration with the same index URL.] (rust-lang/cargo#10592) Internal Changes ---------------- These changes do not affect any public interfaces of Rust, but they represent significant improvements to the performance or internals of rustc and related tools. - [Rewrite LLVM's archive writer in Rust.] (rust-lang/rust#97485)
As described in #70336, when displaying values to zero decimal places the value of 0.5 is rounded to 1, which is inconsistent with the display of other half-integer values which round to even.
From testing the flt2dec implementation, it looks like this comes down to the condition in the fixed-width Dragon implementation where an empty buffer is treated as a case to apply rounding up. I believe the change below fixes it and updates only the relevant tests.
Nevertheless I am aware this is very much a core piece of functionality, so please take a very careful look to make sure I haven't missed anything. I hope this change does not break anything in the wider ecosystem as having a consistent rounding behaviour in floating point formatting is in my opinion a useful feature to have.
Resolves #70336