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MSC2836: Twitter-style Threading #2836

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208 changes: 208 additions & 0 deletions proposals/2836-threading.md
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### MSC2836: Threading
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@ara4n ara4n Oct 29, 2020

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This looks really promising, imo. Would be good to mention the swimlane stuff (i.e. "can I have messages in a thread which aren't explicit references? I don't want to have to set an explicit reply whenever I type within a thread - I just want to send a message!"). Also, think the pagination needs a bit more thought.

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Wouldn't the swimlane stuff a client side feature? Although it probably makes sense to mention the expectation, that clients implement it like that.

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Swimlanes are entirely a client-side problem imo. It would be up to the clients to determine the 3 swimlanes in a graph like:

A
|
B
| \
C  D
|  |
E  F
|  | \
G  H  I
|  |  |
J  K  L

But at a protocol level it is the most useful to have explicit references back to the previous event in the swimlane. This PR is motivated for more Twitter style use cases which don't really have swimlanes though, hence their omission.

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explicit references back to the previous event in the swimlane

Wouldn't that regularly break when multiple clients try to reply in a swimlane at the same time?

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But at a protocol level it is the most useful to have explicit references back to the previous event in the swimlane.

This would break swimlanes, which is the point i'm trying to make. We should acknowledge that we should support a mix of messages with explicit m.reference replies (an explicit fork in convo) versus ones without them (normal messages in a room, or messages within a thread). (Even though the twitter/reddit/HN-style use cases don't need this).

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To illustrate, given the example conversation from Kegsays comment, this is what a client could do:
grafik
(the arrows being m.references)

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What's the advantage an m.label would provide over a subthread?

In the example of your graph (is that yEd?) above, it would tell you whether B is in lane 1 or lane 2. And would let you mix together filter-by-swimlane with filter-by-labels for clients with filter buttons.

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@erdnaxeli erdnaxeli Nov 22, 2020

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If I may, I like the idea of using m.referencess to define swimlanes. In this graph:

  • A is in the room (main swimlane), and a new thread was created from it (and A should also be shown at the top of the thread swimlane)
  • B C E G J are in the same swimlane created from A by B.
  • D F H K are in the same swimlane. This is another thread, created from B.
  • and so I L are in the same swinlane, this is another thread created from F.

From a client perspective, this means you can create threads in threads. You can create a new thread from any message, even a message already in a thread. Contrary to slack for example where you can only create a thread from a message in the channel (i.e. in the main swinlane).

So if you want to post to a swimlane, you have to m.references the same event that the previous event in the swimlane does. Clients that want to have a tree style (like twitter/reddit/...) could just create a new swimlane, i.e they reference the previous message.

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I agree the idea is interesting, although i'm still a bit worried about how the layout algorithm would know that B should be a new swimlane or not. It feels like the only way of telling is whether B has children of its own?

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I think the behavior should be something like:

  • all messages sharing the same m.reference are in the same swimlane
  • the message referenced should be shown at the top of the swimlane, for context

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*This MSC probably supersedes https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/1198*

Matrix does not have arbitrarily nested threading for events. This is a desirable feature for implementing clones of social
media websites like Twitter and Reddit. The aim of this MSC is to define the simplest possible API shape to implement threading
in a useful way. This MSC does NOT attempt to consider use cases like editing or reactions, which have different requirements
to simple threading (replacing event content and aggregating reactions respectively).
Comment on lines +3 to +8
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I disagree with this. While I do think, this MSC is useful, I don't think it should be called threading. Twitter and Reddit don't have threads, they have replies. It looks like threads, because of how the replies get rendered. I think for chat clients, you want the swimlane stuff Matthew talked about. Instead this should be called a replacement for replies, imo.

To be fair, I don't think the name is that important, but I think it would be useful to deprecate the existing replies in the spec after this lands and encourage clients to use this feature for replies instead. Most of the APIs are also useful for replies and it does sound useful, if a client could focus on all the replies to a specific message with a thread UI.

I see this more as a proper replacement for replies, since for IM threads you want to prevent messages from leaking outside a thread. For example if you have a discussion in TWIM, you want to be able to do that in a thread to stop annoying others with your messages, when they want to just read the weekly updates. I don't think this MSC does encourage clients to implement threading that way. Instead this MSC looks more like your replies will get rendered properly, if you remember to reply.

Does that distinction make sense?


The API can be broken down into 2 sections:
- Making relationships: specifying a relationship between two events.
- Querying relationships: asking the server for relationships between events.

The rest of this proposal will outline the proposed API shape along with the considerations and justifications for it.

#### Making relationships

Relationships are made when sending or updating events. The proposed API shape is identical to
[MSC1849](https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/matthew/msc1849/proposals/1849-aggregations.md):
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Is this now MSC2674 and MSC3267 since MSC1849 has now been split up?

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From a call about this, the answer seems to be yes -- this just hasn't been updated to take into account changes to the various relation MSCs.

```
{
"type": "m.room.message",
"content": {
"body": "i <3 shelties",
"m.relationship": {
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so far everything uses m.relates_to (edits, reactions, replies) and if you want to reference accross rooms you should probably also include the room id

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I have the same concern about m.relationship and m.relates_to. Is a standardization planned?

"rel_type": "m.reference",
"event_id": "$another_event_id"
}
}
}
```

Justifications for this were as follows:
- Quicker iterations by having it in event content rather than at the top-level (at the `event_id` level).
- Ability for relationships to be modified post-event creation (e.g by editing the event).
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Just a note, since I don't want to have this discussion again: This relation format actually makes editing relations a bit awkward, as it does not allow you to have multiple relations, so you need to add the relation in new_content, but you can't remove it. But that discussion is already far too long in the other MSCs, so I don't want to repeat it here. But I guess this MSC will then follow the event format in #2674, if that changes to address this? Also, this MSC forms some argument in that discussion, since it requires relations to not be redactable, so one could argue, one should not be able to edit them away, but on the other hand you probably still want to be able to move a comment to the top level or to a different comment, if you messed up your relationship. On the other hand that would break the existing structure, so you may not want that, huh?

Anyway, this is not a concern to address here, I just thought it would be interesting enough to add as a note.

- Doesn't require any additional server-side work (as opposed to adding the event ID as a query param e.g `?in-reply-to=$foo:bar`).

Drawbacks include:
- Additional work required for threading to work with E2EE. See MSC1849 for proposals, but they all boil down to having the `m.relationship`
field unencrypted in the event `content`.

Additional concerns:
- The name of the `rel_type` is prone to bike-shedding: "m.reference", "m.reply", "m.in_reply_to", etc. This proposal opts for the decisions made
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it's more that m.reference is the class of type of relation (i.e. "one event pointing to another somehow" - as opposed to an annotation which can be aggregated like an m.reaction, or an edit which can be aggregated like an m.replace). the question i had is more whether we should have an additional domain-specific field to give the type of the reference. i guess we could default to no explicit relation subtype meaning "threaded reply".

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m.thread or something seems more appropriate, as m.reference is too general. This, of course, begs the question: what if an event is a reply in the thread? As it can't have multiple relationship types, we can't simulate this.

Perhaps this is reason to look back at event aggregation MSCs and adapt?

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m.reference also clashes with MSC2241. They definitely should not look the same.

Regarding the relations format, I commented about that here, mentioning the limitations regarding threads for example: #2674 (comment)

Although if you just want nested threads, replies don't make that much sense anyway.

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I don't care what the rel_type is called, and am happy to go by consensus on this. What's the possible options we have now?

what if an event is a reply in the thread?

Regarding the relations format, I commented about that here, mentioning the limitations regarding threads for example: #2674 (comment)

So after reading this, it comes down to how you see an "event". Is it:

  • A single logical piece of JSON with all updates/references contained within.
  • A diff on the event DAG.

I see it as the 2nd option, whereas the map/array relations format sees it as the 1st option. Therefore, if you are replying to an event which already has an m.relationship then that's fine, because you are still just referencing the event_id. It makes it impossible to reply to more than one thing - i.e it shouldn't be possible to combine this MSC with in_reply_to and if you do want to do that then you'll need to send two events instead of one. This is partly for simplicity: ensuring threads only have a single parent keeps things simple and fits logically with what clients do - I don't think I've seen any UI which allows a post to merge 2 threads together. Allowing multiple relationships also causes some ambiguity around ordering: if an event has an edit and a reaction, is the reaction for the original message or the edited message?

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Thinking of events as diffs is really annoying for clients, since now you need to pull an entire graph out of the database instead of just a single events. For simpler clients, that is simply impossible (which is why weechat doesn't implement proper replies yet) and for others it is just annoying (in Nheko events are rendered using the current event json. Replies are just embedded different events. Having to parse and merge multiple events for edits is not something I want to implement, since it makes a lot of stuff more complicated to handle).

Multiple relations does cause some conflicts in some cases, yes, but I don't think editing a reaction makes any sense anyway. On the other hand there is no order relation, when you edit a reply. It does not matter, if the current event is an edited reply or a replied edit. Forcing a specific order and the client to jump through hoops to have multiple relations, just causes more issues. For example you can't edit a relation away, if edits are just diffs, as there is no "remove that key from the original event" functionality. If events are not diffs, that entire issue goes away.

if an event has an edit and a reaction, is the reaction for the original message or the edited message?

Is that meant as you send one edit to event X and an edit to event X? In that case you have that issue today already in clients not implementing edits. You really should specify that in edits, that you should reply, thread from, react to or edit only the original event id. Nothing to do with diffs vs idempotency.

Which one of those sounds simpler?

  • A single logical piece of JSON with all updates/references contained within.
  • A diff on the event DAG.

A diff on the event dag sounds horrible from a complexity perspective, even if a single event is simpler. I much prefer having the complexity localized.

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I'm aware that handling diffs is tricky for clients. Clients generally need to be able to handle diffs anyway though if they are listening for incremental updates down /sync. This MSC does not preclude providing some aggregated response in /sync which may include the entire thread of conversation as a single JSON object. However, the ability to handle diffs is still required and necessary. A future MSC could provide a way to aggregate threads on /sync e.g by specifying a filter which enables aggregation.

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This is the same m.reference as is being used here. (There is only one!)

It means "this event references is another event". E.g. a verification flow contains events which reference each other.

I thought all relationships are about referencing other events? Replies reference other events, as do edits and reactions. The type is about how the event references the other event. Really, imo m.reference should only be used, if an event references other events loosely, without attaching any meaning. This does not apply to in dm verifications, nor does it apply to threads. While I'm not sure how to call the former, why not call threads m.thread or something similar, that actually conveys the meaning? m.reference and m.replaces are pretty bad names imo, since they are too generic.

Clients generally need to be able to handle diffs anyway though if they are listening for incremental updates down /sync.

Not really, the only thing that really requires it is rendering membership events and a few others nicely, and most clients only do that for memberships.

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I thought all relationships are about referencing other events? Replies reference other events, as do edits and reactions.

I think this is a confusion of terminology. All #1849 style relationships are about relating events together. The relationship can have one of 3 flavours: m.reference (B points to A), m.replace (B replaces A), m.annotate (B annotates A). Yes, they all relate A and B together, but they differ in the semantics of how results are aggregated. References get returned verbatim; Replaces get replaced, Annotations get grouped and summed.

So given that m.reference is the most generic one (it's just saying that B points to A for some reason), the question is whether to say how B points to A. The idea is that you could have different subtypes of reference of B to A (e.g. threaded reply; verification state transitions; voip state transitions etc) and the server will be able to let you navigate through the resulting DAG of references without it understanding semantically what the references actually mean. So that additional typing could be implicit (m.room.message + m.reference = threaded reply, which would then break if you wanted anything but an m.room.message in your thread) or could be explicit, by introducing a ref_type: "m.thread" or perhaps trying to mux the subtype into the rel_type - e.g. rel_type: "m.reference.thread".

Does that make any more sense? I think both @kegsay and @deepbluev7 are failing to grok the intention of m.reference.

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Does that make any more sense?

Not really. If "m.reference" is the generic one, why use it at all? Obviously every relations references another event. But why not default to handling events like "m.reference" in you proposal? That way all events get a somewhat reasonable default behaviour, and you can then special case it in the spec. There is not really a problem with m.replace or m.annotate returning all events, it is just much more efficient not to. Munging a special type into the rel_type sounds like a bad idea to me. Every matrix identifier should be opaque, if possible. Either add an additional key like sub_rel_type or just make the reference behaviour the default. I dislike using subparts in the indentifiers, since those are hard to namespace correctly in MSCs, need parsing, etc. (account_data suffers from this too.) The semantic meaning is important in any case. You probably want a subtle difference in how relations are handled for threads, like being able to return a certain level of nesting or only a special label of a thread. Implicit typing sounds like a really bad idea too.

I think using "m.reference" is fine in some cases, but threads are not one of them imo, because clients want to handle them specifically and servers may want to at some point too.

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For better or worse, I've tried to make MSC 2674 somewhat opinionated in this regard in that rel_type is how the server should aggregate things, and accepted values should be kept to a minimum. If clients require further differentiation, another field can be used (e.g the ref_type Matthew alluded to). Would be nice to be consistent between both MSCs.

in MSC1849 which is "m.reference".

Edge cases:
- Any event `type` can have an `m.relationship` field in its `content`.
- Redacting an event with an `m.relationship` field DOES NOT remove the relationship. Instead, it is preserved similar to how `membership`
is preserved for `m.room.member` events, with the following rules:
* Remove all fields except `rel_type` and `event_id`.
* If `rel_type` is not any of the three types `m.reference`, `m.annotation` or `m.replace` then remove it.
* If `event_id` is not a valid event ID (`$` sigil, correct max length), then remove it.
The decision to preserve this field is made so that users can delete offensive material without breaking the structure of a thread. This is
different to MSC1849 which proposes to delete the relationship entirely.
- It is an error to reference an event ID that the server is unaware of. Servers MUST check that they have the event in question: it need not
be part of the connected DAG; it can be an outlier. This prevents erroneous relationships being made by abusing the CS API.
- It is NOT an error to reference an event ID in another room. Cross-room threading is allowed and this proposal goes into more detail on how
servers should handle this as a possible extension.
- It is an error to reference yourself.
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#### Querying relationships

Relationships are queryed via a new CS API endpoint:
```
POST /_matrix/client/r0/event_relationships
{
"event_id": "$abc123", // the anchor point for the search, must be in a room you are allowed to see (normal history visibility checks apply)
"max_depth": 4, // if negative unbounded, default: 3.
"max_breadth": 10, // if negative unbounded, default: 10.
"limit": 100, // the maximum number of events to return, server can override this, default: 100.
"depth_first": true|false, // how to walk the DAG, if false, breadth first, default: false.
"recent_first": true|false, // how to select nodes at the same level, if false oldest_first - servers compare against origin_server_ts, default: true.
"include_parent": true|false, // if event_id has a parent relation, include it in the response, default: false.
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Since I want this to replace replies, it would be useful, if that could be added as a /sync filter too, that clients can opt into. The parent event is then added to a related_events field in unsigned, so that the client does not have to query the client server API for that.

Justification:

Currently clients rely on the fallback in replies to render them, if it is too hard for them to make a separate request to render the reply (because it is single threaded or otherwise to simple to defer rendering an event or rerender the event). If they could be served the related event over the /sync API instead, I think the need for the fallback would go away, since worst case they just create the fallback locally.

There may also be some value in allowing that for some children, similarly to how reactions are supposed to get aggregated, but it would bloat /sync considerably, so that may be a bad idea, especially if you can't really paginate them. :D

"include_children": true|false // if there are events which reply to $event_id, include them all (depth:1) in the response: default: false.
"direction": up|down // if up, parent events (the events $event_id is replying to) are returned. If down, children events (events which reference $event_id) are returned, default: "down".
"batch": "opaque_string" // A token to use if this is a subsequent HTTP hit, default: "".
}
```
which returns:
```
{
"events": [ // the returned events, ordered by the 'closest' (by number of hops) to the anchor point.
{ ... }, { ... }, { ... },
],
"next_batch": "opaque_string", // A token which can be used to retrieve the next batch of events, if the response is limited.
// Optional: can be omitted if the server doesn't implement threaded pagination.
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"limited": true|false // True if there are more events to return because the `limit` was reached. Servers are not obligated
// to return more events, see if the next_batch token is provided or not.
}
```

Justifications for the request API shape are as follows:
- The HTTP path: cross-room threading is allowed hence the path not being underneath `/rooms`. An alternative could be
`/events/$event_id/relationships` but there's already an `/events/$event_id` deprecated endpoint and nesting this new MSC
underneath a deprecated endpoint conveys the wrong meaning.
- The HTTP method: there's a lot of data to provide to the server, and GET requests shouldn't have an HTTP body, hence opting
for POST. The same request can produce different results over time so PUT isn't acceptable as an alternative.
- The anchor point: pinning queries on an event is desirable as often websites have permalinks to events with replies underneath.
- The max depth: Very few UIs show depths deeper than a few levels, so allowing this to be constrained in the API is desirable.
- The max breadth: Very few UIs show breadths wider than a few levels, so allowing this to be constrained in the API is desirable.
- The limit: For very large threads, a max depth/breadth can quickly result in huge numbers of events, so bounding the overall
number of events is desirable. Furthermore, querying relationships is computationally expensive on the server, hence allowing
it to arbitrarily override the client's limit (to avoid malicious clients setting a very high limit).
- The depth first flag: Some UIs show a 'conversation thread' first which is depth-first (e.g Twitter), whereas others show
immediate replies first with a little bit of depth (e.g Reddit).
- The recent first flag: Some UIs show recent events first whereas others show the most up-voted or by some other metric.
This MSC does not specify how to sort by up-votes, but it leaves it possible in a compatible way (e.g by adding a
`sort_by_reaction: 👍` which takes precedence which then uses `recent_first` to tie-break).
- The include parent flag: Some UIs allow permalinks in the middle of a conversation, with a "Replying to [link to parent]"
message. Allowing this parent to be retrieved in one API hit is desirable.
- The include_children flag: Some UIs allow permalinks in the middle of a conversation, with immediate children responses
visible. Allowing the children to be retrieved in one API hit is desirable.
- The direction enum: The decision for literal `up` and `down` makes for easier reading than `is_direction_up: false` or
equivalent. The direction is typically `down` - find all children from this event - but there is no reason why this cannot
be inverted to walk up the DAG instead.
- The batch token: This allows clients to retrieve additional results. It's contained inside the HTTP body rather than as
a query param for simplicity - all the required data that the server needs is in the HTTP body. This token is optional as
paginating is reasonably complex and should be opt-in to allow for ease of server implementation.

Justifications for the response API shape are as follows:
- The events array: There are many possible ways to structure the thread, and the best way is known only to the client
implementation. This API shape is unopinionated and simple.
- The next batch token: Its presence indicates if there are more events and it is opaque to allow server implementations the
flexibility for their own token format. There is no 'prev batch' token as it is intended for clients to request and persist
the data on their side rather than page through results like traditional pagination.
- The limited flag: Required in order to distinguish between "no more events" and "more events but I don't allow pagination".
This additional state cannot be accurately represented by an empty `next_batch` token.

Server implementation:
- Sanity check request and set defaults.
- Can the user see (according to history visibility) `event_id`? If no, reject the request, else continue.
- Retrieve the event. Add it to response array.
- If `include_parent: true` and there is a valid `m.relationship` field in the event, retrieve the referenced event.
Apply history visibility check to that event and if it passes, add it to the response array.
- If `include_children: true`, lookup all events which have `event_id` as an `m.relationship` - this will almost certainly require
servers to store this lookup in a dedicated table when events are created. Apply history visibility checks to all these
events and add the ones which pass into the response array, honouring the `recent_first` flag and the `limit`.
- Begin to walk the thread DAG in the `direction` specified, either depth or breadth first according to the `depth_first` flag,
honouring the `limit`, `max_depth` and `max_breadth` values according to the following rules:
* If the response array is `>= limit`, stop.
* If already processed event, skip.
* Check how deep the event is compared to `event_id`, does it *exceed* (greater than) `max_depth`? If yes, skip.
* Check what number child this event is (ordered by `recent_first`) compared to its parent, does it *exceed* (greater than) `max_breadth`? If yes, skip.
* Process the event.
If the event has been added to the response array already, do not include it a second time. If an event fails history visibiilty
checks, do not add it to the response array and do not follow any references it may have. This algorithm bounds an infinite DAG
into a "window" (governed by `max_depth` and `max_breadth`) and serves up to `limit` events at a time, until the entire window
has been served. Critically, the `limit` _has not been reached_ when the algorithm hits a `max_depth` or `max_breadth`, it is only
reached when the response array is `>= limit`.
- When the thread DAG has been fully visited or the limit is reached, return the response array (and a `next_batch` if the request
was limited). If a request comes in with the `next_batch` set to a valid value, continue walking the thread DAG from where it
was previously left, ensuring that no duplicate events are sent, and that any `max_depth` or `max_breadth` are honoured
_based on the original request_ - the max values always relate to the original `event_id`, NOT the event ID previously stopped at.

#### Cross-room threading extension

This MSC expands on the basic form to allow cross-room threading by allowing 2 extra fields to be specified
in the `m.relationship` object: `servers` and `room_id`:
```
{
"type": "m.room.message",
"content": {
"body": "i <3 shelties",
"m.relationship": {
"rel_type": "m.reference",
"event_id": "$another_event_id",
"servers": [ "localhost", "anotherhost" ],
"room_id": "!someroomid:anotherhost",
}
}
}
```

Only servers can set these fields. If clients attempt to set them they will be replaced. The server should set these fields
when an event is sent according to the following rules:
- Check the client can view the event ID in question. If they cannot, reject the request.
- Check that the room's `m.room.create` event allows cross-room threading by the presence of `"m.cross_room_threading": true`
in the `content` field. If absent, it is `false`.
- Fetch the servers *currently in the room* for the event. Add them all to `servers`.
- Fetch the room ID that the event belongs to. Add it to `room_id`.

This proposal does not require any changes to `/createRoom` as `"m.cross_room_threading": true` can be specified via the
`creation_content` field in that API.

The `POST /relationships` endpoint includes a new field:
- `auto_join: true|false`: if `true`, will automatically join the user calling `/relationships` to rooms they are not joined to
in order to explore the thread. Default: `false`.

Server implementation:
- When walking the thread DAG, if there is an event that is not known, check the relationship for `room_id` and `servers`. If
they exist, peek into the room ([MSC2444](https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/2444)), or if that is not supported,
join the room as the user querying `/relationships` if and only if `"auto_join": true` in the `/relationships` request. This
is required in order to allow the event to be retrieved. Server implementations can treat the auto join as the same as if the
client made a request to [/join/{roomIdOrAlias}](https://matrix.org/docs/spec/client_server/r0.6.0#post-matrix-client-r0-join-roomidoralias)
with the `server_name` query parameters set to those in `servers`.

Security considerations:
- Allowing cross-room threading leaks the event IDs in a given room, as well as which servers are in the room at the point
the reply is sent. It is for this reason that there is an opt-in flag at room creation time.

Justifications:
- Because the client needs to be able to view the event being replied to, it is impossible for the replying client to
respond to an event which the server is unaware of. However, it is entirely possible for queries to contain events
which the server is unaware of if the sender was on another homeserver. For this reason, we need to contain routing
information *somewhere* so servers can retrieve the event and continue navigating the thread. As the client and server
already have the event which contains a relationship to another event inside an unknown room, the simplest option is to
also contain the routing information with that relationship.