Merchant payments (and potentially avoid issues seen with major payment apps) #38
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Expecting to close the work on this in September. Merchant bank account setup, required for the work, has been delayed for various reasons. |
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hi @reeteshranjan, looking for this feature as currently transfer is flagged as possible fraud transaction. so please let me know if some help needed. |
Thanks for the offer to help! As of now my work on getting a merchant bank account setup is delayed. If you have one (a commercial current account with UPI keys setup), and you wish to provide details for me to be able to develop and test the functionality, please do so. I am expecting to move my own merchant bank account setup to move this week; but nothing sure as of now. |
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I have commercial bank accounts and UPI is setup for the same through gpay.
does this work? if yes, let me know at vshanthamoorthi at gmail.com
…On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 2:31 PM Reetesh Ranjan ***@***.***> wrote:
hi @reeteshranjan <https://github.com/reeteshranjan>, looking for this
feature as currently transfer is flagged as possible fraud transaction. so
please let me know if some help needed.
Thanks for the offer to help!
As of now my work on getting a merchant bank account setup is delayed. If
you have one (a commercial current account with UPI keys setup), and you
wish to provide details for me to be able to develop and test the
functionality, please do so.
I am expecting to move my own merchant bank account setup to move this
week; but nothing sure as of now.
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Sorry, that does not help. It's not about linking your account to UPI. It's about creating merchant public and private keys, and installing the public key in the NPCI network through your bank. |
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how is this feature support going? I try to understand the key generation and installation NPCI network. PNB bank people does not aware of key installation and i also could not find any ways to generation of Keys. So You should guide us as well with which bank support this so that it will be easy to use this. thanks in advance for your help. |
Did not get the chance to move the work on this. Looking to get the work on the bank part going in next 2-3 weeks as of now. As you figured out, it's not straightforward; but all we need is the right setup with one bank account. So far I have managed to talk with BOB and ICICI. ICICI team was very well informed and they were aggressive, and I was hoping I could get that going and complete the work on this feature with a merchant account with them. However; for business-specific reasons, the account with ICICI was not opened. In next 2-3 weeks, I'll be looking to work with few other banks I have scouted. With the huge number of banks having their UPI presence, I am trying to pick few based on how good their UPI payment apps are. |
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@reeteshranjan - any update? waiting for this support eagerly. |
I got the time to follow up with SBI today. They are resolving my queries on email. I hope to provide some concrete information in a week's time. |
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SBI is too slow to respond. For a product I am working with, an HDFC bank account has been opened. They are good, aggressive and informed, like the case with the ICICI bank team. A discussion with them is underway. |
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This is moving too slow. I ended up setting up a current account with HDFC bank. They promised that doing this should be easy including for iOS case where there is no response returned to the app. However; first they are trying to sell their own solutions that conveniently work for Android only, or the UPI collect payment method that can be implemented by PSPs/banks only, unlike what this package or the deep proximity linking method does, which basically allows anyone to add UPI payments into their apps. I am following up with them to close it asap. |
Agree with @reeteshranjan on the point here |
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The benefit of 0 transaction fee with this standard and no implication of future/current charges when using payment gateways or bank solutions is, in my mind, lucrative for frameworks like ONDC. ONDC has buyer and seller apps. I was exploring building a buyer app and what I can see is that all layers of ONDC (buyer app, seller app, ONDC gateway) are IT systems/tools and they need to factor their operations cost in per transaction margins. Reducing these margins are key to ONDC' success, and hence this UPI standard can become a way to reduce margin overheads like payment transaction charge. I have connected with many folks listed on LinkedIn as working for ONDC and have pitched this along with the UPI standard spec doc that is implemented and what this package is already capable of. There was interest and quick response. Discussions ongoing. Hopefully, this can move as a cog in the wheel for ONDC. Twitter reach outs did not go anywhere so far. Both UPI and NPCI handles are good for simple PR only, not for deep tech discussions. At least it seems so with my experience. |
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Responses from ONDC fizzled out. ONDC folks seem to have a framework-only mindset, at least those who responded. They did not see how the above practical issue can use this standard. Connected with NPCI employees listed on LinkedIn. This reach out seems to be going better. I guess they relate to this more. Connected with folks in product/innovation. Two positive responses so far about taking the discussion forward. |
Update: I have got very quick and interested NPCI phone call connect. Call tomorrow. Does anyone want to join the call? Reach out to reeteshranjan@piaxis.tech with your number. I'll join those interested on conf call. If you have understood the core issues of the standard we are trying to deal with in this ticket, then joining the call makes sense. The call won't be about anything outside the spec and its issues. |
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Had a very good initial call with someone in NPCI. He will connect me to the folks working on deep linking and proximity integration. |
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Got a notification from the person I talked to inside NPCI. He says that the team is looking into it and will take time. |
Any update? |
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Now that the payment gateways are not onboarding new customers, do we have any path on this? @reeteshranjan, I have everything but the signatures. |
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For various reasons, none of the different channels are moving anywhere so far. One of my friends who handles legal work has advised to use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandamus to get a high court order to make the bank comply with installing the public keys. The basis is that once there is a government specification that says that the bank has to install public keys (we have the public draft that mentions that), the bank cannot refuse as per this high court process. I am tempted to take it up; however, my earlier relationship with HDFC in form of a current account will be over shortly and would be opening a current account with another bank within a month. I would be working with them from the beginning about this and see if the above process is even required, or just its mention will be enough. |
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Sad lets do it, This would be a blessing and encourage a lot of people to start up, I hate the fact that I can bypass this payment gateways but still cant. |
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I was really looking forward to using the upi_pay package to bypass all these payment gateways but going by this thread, is there any possibility of doing that by July 2023? |
Not likely |
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On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 at 1:12 PM, Soumyajit Pathak ***@***.***> wrote:
I was really looking forward to using the upi_pay package to bypass all
these payment gateways but going by this thread, is there any possibility
of doing that by July 2023?
Not likely
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I am using phonepe payment gateway just to create a upi intent have to pay
them 1.8%
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None of the banks or the payment apps are incentivised to make it open for OSS implementations like us to work with it. Even though NPCI's original spec is fairly open. None of that is enforced strictly. That's the gist of it basically. |
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Yesterday I attended an event at IITACB. Got a chance to raise the question to Nandan Nilekani who was one of the speakers on digital public infrastructure. He said: "I understand your frustration", and "it's early days". Got one connect with Bharat Fund who dropped his card to me and said he will get me some connects in NPCI. Have reached out to him on email about the same. An Infosys strategic products team representative, another speaker, pointed me to go through cdpi.dev. They themselves have worked out various things for DPI government projects. There were various panels who were exploring how IITs can work with others: government, businesses etc. Most businesses do vertical-based (arising from their needs) academic work with IIT profs. I asked them if they can do more horizontal work by funding/supporting (with connects) work like what this project is for - giving back to open source. I asked them to give back to open source. One of the businesses did realise how they use Linux for everything, and asked me to come through a reputed forum like IITACB. Touched back with the NPCI connect I had got. He responded quickly saying team was busy with something. He will check with them. |
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Talked today to Infosys SPT rep, who has been very helpful. He mentioned about implementing UPI outside country, and my point was "how would we do that?" if we are using this spec. Also mentioned the functional, security and on-ground issues blocking us. He concurred that we come to know where this spec is once we implement it, and now more has to be done. He pointed me to get to Nandan through ekstep.org channel and also talk to iSPIRT as they have helped draft many DPI specs. A very genuinely helpful fellow he is. Will be exploring further. |
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I connected with iSPIRT. They have reached back and have a call setup with them next week Friday. This is the group that has worked on various standards including the UPI payment protocol, as mentioned on their website. Let's see how this goes. |
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Discussion on call and email with iSPIRT is moving well. They have connected me to their volunteers to do further discussion on how to complete the spec definition. Fingers crossed. |
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Any progress mate? |
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Is there any update on this? We created current account with multiple banks and checked with them about public and private key. But bank people does not know anything about this. .. Did anyone one able to use Deep linking in Android app . Please comment here with detailed steps 🙏 |
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It was a circle back. iSPIRT pointed me to Sanjay Jain, whom I met at IITACB event, and he gave me his card to get any help. I have reached out to him, and he said he'll see what he can do. I have pinged back every few weeks to him; but have not heard back anything. |
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any updates bro |
@reeteshranjan : If this was the case then when using upi_india plugin I wonder how the payments happened about 3-4 months back in 2024? I believe these mandates are introduced by NPCI from the year 2017. |
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Could anyone post a screen capture of what happens when Phone Pe opens and what error it displays? A screenshot of the error displayed by PhonePe should work, too. I have got some more connects and currently I am working with one of my juniors in Phone Pe to understand/proceed further. Payment apps like Phone Pe get some SDK from NPCI that implements their part of the UPI transaction with banks. So error that PhonePe shows will help understanding the overall flow better. My junior in PhonePe knows several folks in NPCI, so this investigation would help him narrow down whom in NPCI to connect for our specific issue. @sureshramanujam @marutichintan @drenther @itsmesubham @pratikjadhav12 @kspoojary @tata-pay @efficientaman @nillastudios @Chanelle25meyer @vshanthamoorthi @bvivek77 @chetanjrao @pepsighan @itss-sid @venky9885 @Thathwagnu @rvharjinderbains @dhirajkadam27 @sravan1432 @ajesh123 @suyogbargule @vinayvishnu725 @bashadev21 @adityasreebysani @jatinyadav25 @mangeshsvk @manojsinghal2003 @yashwp @lzzy12 @AnandMG02 @prince-vishal @viveknimkarde @ngaurav @senthil88 |
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Hi Reetesh, I can explain why things are not happening.
After a few months of search, asking etc., I finally found that this won't
happen l, just because all UPI payments done to merchants by any UPI app
are only treated as C2M payments (Customer to Merchant). For any C2M
payments the Merchant must be registered to accept ONLINE payments. No UPI
app is authorised to make any merchant as ONLINE.
For example, if a merchant is registered as verified merchant on Google Pay
Business, then GPay Business will issue a Merchant ID. Even in this case,
GPay can only mark such registered merchants as OFFLINE. Meaning, customers
can pay to these merchants only either by scanning their QR Code or pay to
their phone number or pay to their VPA issued by GPay Business.
The only solution to overcome this problem is to use a payment gateway.
Payment Gateways are PSPs (Payment Service Providers) registered as
Developers with NPCI. Only PSPS have the authorisation to mark mark
merchants as ONLINE. This, INTENT payments can now be done to such
merchants who are specifically marked as ONLINE (accepts OFFLINE also).
Thanks,
Suresh Ramanujam.
…On Mon, Sep 9, 2024, 12:11 Reetesh Ranjan ***@***.***> wrote:
Could anyone post a screen capture of what happens when Phone Pe opens and
what error it displays?
I have got some more connects and currently I am working with one of my
juniors in Phone Pe to understand/proceed further. Payment apps like Phone
Pe get some SDK from NPCI that implements their part of the UPI transaction
with banks. So error that PhonePe shows will help understanding the overall
flow better.
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Hi Suresh, could you please list your source of info here? So we all can benefit? I asked that because I see some sort of going off from the spec we are implementing, which handles merchant payments and gives us a way to behave as merchants etc. while invoking a UPI transaction; but without being a PSP, Payment app or a bank. |
@reeteshranjan There is no way, neither MQR nor personal VPA can bypass the URL protocol wake-up method. This is a restriction order issued by NPCI, and PhonePE, GPay, and PayTM have all responded. But not long ago, I found that another protocol of PayTM supports wake-up support. I will analyze it here for you paytmmp://cash_wallet?pa=test@upi&pn=&tn=353FW2M4NG5K1&am=100.00&cu=INR&mc=4468&url=&mode=02&purpose=00&orgid=159002&sign=dD1OyTQs4NIUQBVN==&featuretype=money_transfer |
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Hey @reeteshranjan, I am working on a project that requires UPI deep-linking in app and I am getting the same issue with all the UPI apps but able to pay successfully through bank UPI id to a non-merchant user. I don't know the reason for this, perhaps this signing of intent is required only for third party UPI apps like (Gpay, Paytm, etc.). Would this be of any help in researching about this issue? |
Is your feature request related to a problem? Please describe.
Describe the solution you'd like
The API changes/additions should retain backward compatibility for non-merchant payments.
Describe alternatives you've considered
This aspect of the UPI deep linking specification has no alternatives.
Any example solutions
This feature is research based and is an attempt to implement part of the UPI deep linking specification not yet implemented. There is no example solution known.
Additional context
None
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