Autolearned recipes need an audit. #37122
Comments
I-am-Erk
added
Good First Issue
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In case it helps, here's everything that is currently auto-learned. List was generated using jq like this: where striking the last {
"result": "survivor_machete",
"autolearn": true,
"skills_required": [
"melee",
5
],
"skill_used": "fabrication",
"difficulty": 6
}or {
"result": "element",
"autolearn": [
[
"electronics",
3
]
],
"skills_required": null,
"skill_used": "electronics",
"difficulty": 1
}But just the list of IDs follows here. Note that in some cases the id is followed by the suffix, because multiple distinct recipes may produce the same result. Current auto-learned recipes: |
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This could also open the door for more bookshelves (which could themselves provide crafting bonuses for using as book storage). [Apologies if this is already available in game] |
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Wow, it's worse than I thought. By far. |
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I am working on a spreadsheet that reviews all the items currently set to autolearn, suggests a proficiency to assign them to (for later), and offers a rationale for why they shouldn't be autolearned, if it's not obvious. I will convert the simple part of the results into a checklist for this issue later, and that should make it easier for people to start converting recipes and adding recipe books |
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Putting it here so I don't forget: the book 101 crafts for beginners, while humorous, needs to be broken up. So does the DIY compendium. |
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I'd suggest #27312 to be addressed first. |
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Balancing for people who choose particular crippling negative traits is definitely not on the radar here. |
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this is also a great opportunity to diversify available books |
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Yeah, on my review of recipes, with recipe books added in, I think we'll probably wind up with a ton of new books, maybe five to ten times as many. Fewer recipes per book and hundreds of new recipes to add. It should do a lot to reduce the ability to quickly grind up skills |
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I think we need a "knowledgeable" trait, that "auto learns recipes", to counterbalance this. ;) |
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I don't know how plausible something like that trait would be, but a "Tinkerer" trait that has a better chance of learning recipes via disassembly might be easier to implement and accomplish much the same goal. |
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The major negative gameplay impact is going to be that innawoods characters are totally borked for a bit until we figure out a solution. I might make a mod that keeps these autolearn, for that reason, until figuring it out is possible |
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Maybe some professions - like churl, blacksmith, electrician and so on - should have access to a broader recipes variety? As in they should know them from the start if they have high enough skills for that, and probably even some recipes which require +1/+2 skills from what they can do (obviously uncraftable until skills are raised). |
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That will require a proficiency system, ie. subskills that connect similar recipes together, and that's a system for another day. It's desirable, but not part of this issue |
Yeah. I totally understand that it's not the main gameplay type/loop. But it does have some relevancy in that, it still needs balancing to some degree. Just to make sure obvious/needed (lore or gameplay)/simple recipes are not accidentally gated off. Inna woods totally won't be making a laser pistol. But if a "helicopter crash" survivor, should have no trouble making a makeshift wind generator and night light out of spares from the crash (motor + light etc). But as you say, a lot of the recipe limits is not as simple as "what level/skill is this", but more "can someone learn this on their own/in a small survivor community?" Some things/chemicals/electrics took decades with teams/industries. Even though we do take it for granted now. So I understand it's hard to balance, and it's great it's under careful consideration to the changes. |
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I disagree with sauerkraut not being autolearned, along with anything else that can be learnt by letting something spoil or otherwise not requiring any specific knowledge (sauerkraut, sourdough, cider/wine/any other fruit alcohols that can be made from the yeast present on fruit itself, charcoal kiln - any campfire is going to make charcoal, kilns just make it much more efficient - et cetera). And I don't think autolearn = NONE, GAMESTART, ALWAYS would need proficiency/subskill system, only autolearning new recipes on skill-up if you had some amount of that skill on starting the game would. And I don't think it even makes all that much sense, a blacksmith wouldn't be any better equipped to figure out how to smith something they don't know already than a layman of equal skill, and hence would have to be taught. |
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Sauerkraut fermentation is very much not a matter of, "letting it go bad", if you do it wrong you can produce something poisonous. Same with sourdough and fruit fermentation. |
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When you have enough knowledge and have a preliminary idea of what you want, you should be able to try to make it, although you may experience a lot of failures. For example, when I have "strips" and " adhesives", I should naturally think of making "tape". |
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It amuses me how much of a demonstration of my point it is that someone asserted sauerkraut production is just a matter of letting cabbage go bad. |
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https://www.reddit.com/r/cataclysmdda/comments/j0ih2l/a_possible_solution_to_autolearned_recipes/ This is a proposal I'm now working on that would heavily mitigate a lot of the autolearning concerns. |
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Your reddit post is similar to my own thoughts, but I don't really want the discussion to fade into reddit. Basically, I want a few things. Proficiency books
Autolearn recipes by proficiency
In this example, you need blacksmithing and then two of the subsequent listed proficiencies to be able to autolearn this recipe. Recipe book changes
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I agree; it makes sense for someone to autolearn a recipe at a higher skill level than needed to do the recipe (which should also be available in books). For instance, I can fix some basic cooking recipes on my own - meaning they require cooking something like 1-2 - if I have a recipe book. My spouse, OTOH, not only doesn't need a recipe book for such basic recipes (and in-game should have them already learned), but is quite capable of creating (delicious!) variants "on the fly" (which might be written as a recipe someplace - but not one my spouse has ever read). Is this a high cooking skill "only", or a proficiency that enabled my spouse to autolearn these recipes? About the only thing I can think of for this case would be a proficiency of
Add to this some combination of (higher) skill level and proficiency at which experimentation won't be needed - at least for up to some (low) difficulty of recipe. For your example above, someone at Lv5 will only autolearn the recipe after they succeed (possibly more than once). Someone at Lv9 with an appropriate proficiency may have it autolearned automatically. |
This issue looks like its getting stale; so to bump it a bitCan the folks here confirm if this is the work that we need to do? Or if there is something that can be done to make this process more streamlined? ---- Step 1 - Identify Recipes to Group into a Book So to go over what must be done in order to appropriately make these changes: First:
I chose these 7 recipes that require knapping proficiency and skill fabrication ----- Step 2 - Create Book create a book that is going to contain these recipes
------ Step 3 - Edit Recipe JSON files and make them Associated to Book Add and delete attributes in the 7 Recipe Items
---- Step 4 - Test Verification If your trying to test: all you need to do is confirm that the Recipe isn’t magically something you know unless your around the book
The bigger question that formed upon me naively approaching this work; We need to come up with some documentation on how we plan on grouping the Recipes Together for a book. And divvy out the work. |
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Yes, those are the appropriate steps. Grouping is the larger question. |
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An idea I had for helping with availability of recipes: With certain skill levels, the player could autolearn recipes to craft a recipe book. Like the player should probably always autolearn something like pointy stick, and at the same time could autolearn a recipe craft to "Improvised Spear Designs" which would result in a hand written notebook with recipes for things like knife spears. It could require paper and pen/pencil/etc. Or for innawoods like... charcoal and birch bark? Whatever strikes the right combination of fun/realistic/balanced. I would really love any change that reduces the number of recipes in the crafting interface. Right now I find it completely unmanageable; only the excellent search function makes it usable. I've been experimenting on my own with generating mods to blacklist things or disable autolearn, but I don't have much experience modding the game and haven't had much success so far. |
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I think, while this issue is going to be a permanently ongoing one, it's save to close it. The situation is nowhere near as bad as it was when I opened this, and there's never going to be a point where it's "finished". Some of the more complex ideas for improving autolearn should really be separate issues of their own as they'll be lost if they're just comments in here. |
Is your feature request related to a problem? Please describe.
Many recipes are autolearned currently when they are non-trivial things that you can't just 'figure out'. For example, making hard cheese or sauerkraut. Even sausages aren't that easy to make without some sort of guide. I'm a very skilled and experienced cook (I have a chemistry degree so officially in game my cooking skill must be at least 8) and I would need a guide to do any of those things, except sauerkraut because I'm a great krauter - because I learned how to do it from a book.
Describe the solution you'd like
A careful audit of autolearned recipes. Especially at higher levels, autolearning should be the exception, not the rule.
Reducing the number of autolearned recipes and moving them to recipe books would allow the creation of many more recipe books, which in turn would reduce the ability to gain all crafting knowledge from a handful of books.
Describe alternatives you've considered
We have other ways to fix book learning too, like proficiencies, but this is an important step.
Additional context
This issue should be solved bit by bit, not as a single giant PR. someone could go make a book on fermenting or cheese making and move the recipes to that and off autolearn.
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