Replies: 8 comments 66 replies
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Thanks for the heads-up! I figured something was going on when I started seeing failures caused by 5MS prices in Amber API responses :) I think the main concern here is whether Tesla will be ok with such frequent tariff updates. In the past they indicated no, probably because they sell their VPP API product. I also started seeing more failures recently from Amber-related Tesla API requests, so I need to confirm if there's some rate-limiting going on. |
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It may have been an intermittent issue in the Amber API, but I definitely saw 5MS data for a user, and the fix was to change the I'll send an update if I hear back from Tesla about tariff updates. |
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Good to hear there are already some 5m tesla customers playing with Netzero. I was still seeing server errors from the api yesterday that successfully changed settings as requested. |
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Is this the time_of_use_settings API that you're calling yourself? Or Netzero API? If Netzero, what's the error? |
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This is calling Netzero to change mode or MRL or both. Calling netzero with {"operational_mode":"self_consumption","backup_reserve_percent":5} <!doctype html> <title>Server Error (500)</title>Server Error (500)It's pretty random if the server error message occurs. |
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This is related to the issues I mentioned above: occasionally |
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Thanks Ziga, Just followup from email, no I've found this discussion. Setting resolution=30 is a solid solution and something I have implemented here, that will still provide the 24 hour view. My only query is the now/ current value, which I think NZ is already updating every 5 minutes anyway. We now have certainly that this value is the price to be paid, so having NZ update this value every 5 minutes would be great. I am also seeing lots of 5xx errors from other interfaces with the FleetAPI, which doesn't inspire a lot of confidence as we go into charge per use mode.. (although I think I saw you post that said energy calls are currently still free for the time being.) |
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yeah, I think we're pushing the boundaries of what Tesla will tolerate. My feeling is that using TBC for Amber will only ever be a temporary and convoluted solution. The real solution is Amber offering charge, preserve and discharge commands via their API. Something they seem to want to offer and are working on, but with no timeframe. Tesla could offer these commands too, but that's not likely unless Aus regulators force them to. |
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That might be the case. For real-time pricing, Tesla has a VPP API product that they sell to utilities, so they probably don't see the need to make it work well with Fleet API. The majority of Netzero users with dynamic tariffs are actually on day-ahead pricing (e.g. Octopus Energy and Tibber). That use-case is something Tesla wants to support and has not caused issues so far. |
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Maybe Amber could even push prices over an mqtt channel or the like? |
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The issue there is all the different states and tariffs and even individual premium FITS. I can't see Amber wanting to push hundreds of individual customer prices to a third party. Asking them to push one "new prices are ready" signal seems more likely to be acceptable to them. |
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Could I make a suggestion as the timing of updates has become more important with 5MS. Currently the Utility Provider field reads:
Currently in the Rate Plan field, injected by NetZero the text reads:
Could I suggest the Rate Plan field be updated to include a time stamp of the current update (GMT would be fine):
E.g.
That way users could then verify for themselves the timing of the current plan update.
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That makes sense. Although the bigger issue right now is the amount of errors when updating on 5-minute schedule, which results in less frequent updates in fact. |
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Ziga, can you easily look to see how often Amber customers have the price injection turned on but TBC turned off some/most of the time? In my case I'd be happy to have prices injected just before an api or app requests the mode be changed to TBC, and price injection stops when I turn off TBC. Another option that could be considered is users sending tariff prices to you via api. That'd help more than just Amber customers automate stuff. At the moment my prices are updated by you each 5m, but I rarely need to turn on TBC. |
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That's a good idea, I can add that. However there is no easy way to detect mode changes (those can change outside of Netzero, and polling for changes creates another problem), so you'd have to be ok with a 5 minute delay when switching back to TBC. I'm actually less worried about the load of the pricing API calls -- every 5 minutes at the current scale of Amber users with Powerwall is not a significant load for what is a cache-able API request. But this will at least reduce the amount of errors on Tesla's side. I have an email out to them to investigate those. |
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I am having real issues getting the Utility Rate plan from NetZero to Auto Update. I set the Auto Update switch to on and it reports it will do updates.
The Tesla app also reports that the Utility Rate plan has been updated by NetZero. Which is a new feature and provides good feedback.
But when I got to the utility rate plan, it hasn't been updated.
And when I go back to NetZero it shows the Auto Update switch in the off position. I will hard reset my gateway now, which has cleared responsiveness issues in the past, but the experience of getting price injection functional requires perseverance and dedication. |
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Only if it was via API since Amber already has working app based discharge button that will always work better than messing with TBC to discharge. For API, I'd suggest some duration parameter to be sent with the requests, e.g. for X minutes, or until the end of the current 5m. |
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Ah yes, I forgot about the Amber feature. @purcell-lab does that not work for your use-case? Of course, the feature might still be useful the the world outside of Amber :)
From what I've seen, TBC can take several minutes to kick in after a configuration change, which would make this less useful in the 5MS context. |
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This is the control problem we are trying to solve, two unexpected/ u forecast -20c/ kWh 5 minute intervals.
Smart shift did a reasonable job with the Powerwall, charging for the full 5 minute intervals for the first 5 minute interval, but stopped charging half way through the second 5 minute negative interval. Of course a lot of this is beyond the scope of NetZero, but this is the 'opportunity' we are faced with Amber pricing. I also need to sharpen up my zero export automation, to switch solar production to zero with negative prices you can see my solar production goes to zero halfway through the first negative price interval but missed the second negative interval.
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I send mode="backup" requests for those. 3.7kW not 5, but they get actioned very quickly. If I also see the alert I'll turn on smartshift and force a charge at 5kW. |
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Just jumping in here; I'm on a different plan with a different provider, but with similar needs. Yes.
TLDR; If you set up the right prices, this does work - at least for me. I'm on Globird Zero Hero: currently a multi-part plan with free imports for three hours in the middle of the day, a bonus for zero imports for two hours in the evening, and a bonus feed in tariff for up to 10kWh for those same two hours. Rates are
Note those times are winter - summer time the Peak shifts forward an hour (as you'll see below in the screenshot). I can get forced charging by setting reserve to 100% between 11am and 2pm. I can get forced discharge by setting mode from self-consumption to ToU between 5pm and 7pm (6pm to 8pm summer-time). This gives you an idea of how it works (taken from Home Assistant Tesla Fleet):
And this gives you an idea of the rate plan as seen by the Powerwall / Tesla
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Looks like a bit of correlation when my sensors become unavailable and when the Tesla app reports the updates have been applied.
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This is consistent with what I've observed: |
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A couple of things are going wrong today. NetZero is only updating prices every 30 minutes.
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that's never a good position to be in. Waiting on Tesla to fix something. 🥱😴💀 |
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I'm seeing a drop in Tesla 5xx errors since around 2.5h ago (2024-12-10T20:36:00Z), without any changes on our side. Let me know if things are looking better on your end as well. |
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the auto Update for Utility Rate plan isn't staying selected, but no error message. The current plan in Powerwall doesn't reflect the high and low prices seen by NZ.
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Hm, your |
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Looking error free here. |
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Great to see the 5xx errors seem to have completely disappeared now. My original issue of not being able to enable automatic updates has been persisting for about a month now. When I select auto update, it loads the prices once, but never updates and the option is deselected.
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Thanks, sorry this is painful to debug like this. It also doesn't help that we also need to wait for the updated prices to appear in Tesla. When I switch auto update, it doesn't stick on.
When you switched it did stick on, could I ask you to switch on again from your end. I'm currently in TBC mode. |
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I turned it back on. You won't be able to turn it on yourself (just off), because of Tesla's 504 error response. You can always switch to self-powered mode if you want a "soft" off. |
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Thanks, I can now see in the Tesla app that NetZero updates the Utility Plan twice every 2 minute.
The NetZero app can see the correct Amber prices and the auto update switch is staying on.
However, the updated prices aren't being reflected in my Powerwall.
I wonder if there maybe an issue with the payload format. Are you able to forward me the payload that NetZero uploads so I can tweak it to see if that is the issue? |
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I switched to self consumption and it updated the rates in the gateway. I have delivered back to TBC and it seems to be updating.
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You can see the payload with the |
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Just a heads-up for Ziga.
Amber Electricity (Australia) is in the final stages of enabling 5m pricing.
It currently uses a 30m "synthetic" average price that is guesstimated throughout the current 30m period and then locks the actual price in the last 5m of each half hour.
Most Amber customers have meters that record usage at 5m intervals and the wholesale market already charges at 5m intervals.
There are a significant number of customers in the state of Victoria that will stay on 30m billing.
Netzero will need to determine if the customer has 30 or 5m billing (see amberelectric/public-api#226). I'd suggest doing this once a day just in case someone switches from 30 to 5. There shouldn't be many changeovers once Amber launches this to everyone.
Customers on 5m billing will need the current 5m fixed price and then 5m forecasts for perhaps the next 30-60 minutes.
Beyond the next hour or two, there's not a lot of benefit in knowing an individual 5m forecast, we may as well look at an estimate for 30m.
I've played with the old Tesla API and injected extra tariff entries at 5m resolution on top of the existing Amber 30m forecasted prices. So Tesla are ok with the extra prices and 5m frequency.
Moving from 30m to 5m means the speed of updates is more important. Responding to a change quickly can be very beneficial. Amber currently require all clients to poll for changes that have no fixed update time (the market's pricing engine takes different times to calculate the prices across all the states, depending on grid volatility).
Polling is the worst possible way to do things efficiently.
Since Netzero has such a large following with Amber customers, I'd like to suggest you contact Amber and figure out a way for them to push a notification to a Netzero server to indicate that all the new prices are ready to be fetched.
Polling too early can lead to using old prices for 5m instead of new prices that arrive a little late.
I hope one day Amber will push all price updates or push signals that trigger clients to fetch new data once and just in time.
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