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Llover #20

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anotherpit opened this issue May 19, 2023 · 5 comments
Open

Llover #20

anotherpit opened this issue May 19, 2023 · 5 comments

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@anotherpit
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What the lib gives:

new Conjugator('2010').conjugateSync('llover', 'castellano')
[
  {
    info: { model: 'mover', region: 'castellano' },
    conjugation: {
      Indicativo: {
        // ...
        Presente: [
          'lluevo',
          'llueves',
          'llueve',
          'llovemos',
          'llovéis',
          'llueven'
        ],
        // ...
      },
      // ...
    },
    // ...
  }
]      
...

What WordReference gives:

presente:
  yo: 
  : 
  usted: llueve
  nosotros: 
  vosotros: 
  ustedes: 
  vos: 

Bug or somehow intended result?

@anotherpit anotherpit changed the title llover Llover May 19, 2023
@jirimracek
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It's correct. WordReference only lists the defective version of conjugation (majority of web conjugators are incomplete, OK for basic stuff but don't dig too deep). Defective means that only selected combinations of person/time/mode are used in the language. E.g., in English, the verb 'to rain' is purely defective, it's only used in 3rd person - it rains, it was raining, ... - the sentence "I am raining" makes no sense in many languages. Spanish is a bit more complicated because of the various regions. Although 'llover' is normally used to mean 'to rain' and in pure Castellano it's normally used only in 3rd person, it can also have different meanings (Pasarle a uno algo en abundancia, calarse un techo, bóveda o cubierta con la lluvia.). So it's OK to say 'Yo lluevo', 'ellos llueven', etc., it just has a different meaning. The conjugator provides both versions, defective as well as non-defective. See conjugation of llover at https://www.verblogic.com, you'll see a little +def superscript and an option to see either or both conjugations at the same time.
Good explanation of defective verbs (in Spanish), see https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbo_defectivo
If you want to dig really deep, La RAE is a definitive reference - https://dle.rae.es/
One of the best online resources is at La Universidad de Las Palmas de Gran Canaria - https://tulengua.es/conjugar-verbo/
You can get the list of defective verbs from the conjugator as well

public getDefectiveVerbListSync(pure = false): string[]
public getDefectiveVerbList(pure = false): Promise<string[]> async version

Let me know if it makes sense

@anotherpit
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Yeah, that makes perfect sense, thanks for detailed explanation. I also notice that my snippet in the first message is incomplete as conjugateSync() actually gives me both defective and regular conjugations for llover, and I was only watching the first one which happened to be regular. Ok, that'll do for llover.

Could you also explain a couple of similar cases then?

  1. conjugateSync('soler') also gives me two result tables, but this time both are defective, and they do differ: e.g., the second one contains Participio and Preterito Perfecto de Indicativo while the first one does not.

  2. I could not find a way to get from conjugateSync('haber') the impersonal form hay. It gives me two result tables, regular and defective. Presente de Indicativo in regular one is:

Presente: [ 'he', 'has', 'ha', 'hemos', 'habéis', 'han' ],

And Presente de Indicativo in defective is:

Presente: [ '-', '-', 'ha', '-', '-', '-' ],

@jirimracek
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jirimracek commented May 21, 2023

Soler - it's one of those really special verbs. I am pretty sure I have it correct, I quickly glanced at the data, it's so called oligomorpho and it's got 2 special versions (it's unlikely you'll find it in any dictionary). Unfortunately I left my Diccionario de Dudas in Spain when I moved. I will dig it up but I am pretty sure it's got two versions of defectives - the Preterito Perfecto isn't the only different form, you'll see differences in other compuestos as well (Presente as well as Subjuntivo).

As far as haber - how could I have missed that??? Thank you for pointing it out, this is unforgivable - one of the most used Spanish words :) :) :) - I still can't believe it, surely it must have been on my radar when composing it but apparently it's so common that I just neglected it. Hay un problema aquí, sin duda. (My teacher was laughing her ass off when I told her)

If you can live without it, great, just keep it in your mind - I'll fix it but it'll take me a while, I am swamped with work (new job), I need to restore my virtual development box that I didn't touch for couple of years now, please be patient

... correction:
The compuestos are correct I misspoke, the problem is that it doesn't show up in presente as impersonal
Presente: [ 'he', 'has', 'ha|hay', 'hemos', 'habéis', 'han' ]
I think I perhaps need to add another model (strictly impersonal) for it as it's very unique

Again, thanks for noticing :)

@anotherpit
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I am pretty sure it's got two versions of defectives

OK, so that's a rare but still valid case of several defective meanings/forms. Got it.

(new job)

Congratulations! 🎉

how could I have missed that???

No worries, it happens to the best of us

I think I perhaps need to add another model (strictly impersonal) for it as it's very unique

Yeah, adding a new model sounds much safer than extending the existing one

it's very unique

Do you have any understanding, how unique it is? Are there similar cases? Or is haber the very only one?

thanks for noticing :)

Thanks for the library and being so quick to response!

@jirimracek
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OK, it only took me over a year to sit down and resuscitate my dev VM. (It only took walking away from my job 😆 ).
I just merged into main, new v2.4.0
It now produces the 3rd version of haber, the only 2 entries there are the infinitive and 3rd person singular, 'hay'
Didn't do release nor pushed to npm yet as I didn't run a full suite of all tests - I am away from my other storage that has the test versions of all 14k verbs. The simple tests seem to be fine. Just FYI 😃

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